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Title: Spec Ops: The Line Post by: The_Flying_Dove on January 17, 2010, 10:00:41 AM I thought that I'd take a break from discussing Heavy Rain, so I decided to talk about the upcoming Spec Ops game. According to wikipedia:
Quote The Line is primarily a third-person shooter with emphasis on squad-based tactics. The player controls Captain Martin Walker who is accompanied by a Delta Force team to rescue a U.S. Army Colonel who remained behind in Dubai. To accomplish this goal, players must traverse the city to neutralize enemy threats and natural disasters to find and recover the lost Colonel, named John Konrad. As the player progresses, better weapons and equipment will become available to accomplish goals easier. Squad commands will also be available, allowing the player to direct their teammates to perform certain actions or move to certain areas.[1][2] The game focuses on the natural sandstorms of Dubai to provide dynamic terrain changing during gameplay, similar to Fracture and the Red Faction series. This is supported by an unpredictable engine that randomizes when and where sandstorms will arise, as well as how harsh they will be. Sandstorms may open or close paths to the players as well as turn advantages in a firefight.[1][2] The game will follow the story of player character Captain Martin Walker as he is sent into a post-apocalyptic Dubai with an elite Delta Force team. Previously, Dubai was a wealthy area with many high profile citizens until catastrophic sandstorms left a majority of the city buried. This caused many to evacuate, leaving only a few behind. One of the people left behind was U.S. Army Colonel John Konrad, a founding member of Delta Force, who refused to evacuate from a training facility in the city and instead remained behind with the men under his command to help protect the citizens that could not evacuate. After several weeks of no contact, the Army fears that Col. Konrad and his men are lost to the destruction of the city until a weak distress signal is picked up. This gives the Army reason to deploy the player and their squad, who must infiltrate the city, neutralize outlaws and survive sandstorms as they attempt to determine what happened to Konrad and his men. In addition, it will be one of the first true anti-war games ever released. If Six Days in Fallujah captured your interest, then this game might do the same. There actually was an interview on the game recently, on GameSpot.com. The link can be found below: http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/action/specopstheline/video/6244904/spec-ops-the-line-interview--greg-kasavin- Title: Re: Spec Ops: The Line Post by: Christian Knudsen on January 17, 2010, 10:37:51 AM Sounds and looks pretty cool.
In addition, it will be one of the first true anti-war games ever released. I have no idea what you mean by this, though? Title: Re: Spec Ops: The Line Post by: The_Flying_Dove on January 17, 2010, 10:52:03 AM What I meant was that it will be one of the first games to include choices for the player that involve doing what your team tells you to do, and it may not always be the most ethical thing to do. You will need to choose between obeying your orders, or disobeying them to do what's right. In other words, it is aiming for a shades of gray morality, rather than a black and white one.
Title: Re: Spec Ops: The Line Post by: Christian Knudsen on January 17, 2010, 11:05:36 AM I'm not really sure having the player make "moral" choices makes it an anti-war game. It just seems like most other FPS shooters (but looks cool, though!) that include the "moral" choices gimmick. It's not like having the player choose between two actions in InFamous made it into some anti-superhero statement. I guess I just didn't get any anti-war vibes from the clips they showed in that interview, mostly because the player was shooting guys in all the clips. The narrative could be all about the horrors of war, but (and I guess I may just be cynical) I'd think most large game developers would focus on the "shooting bad guys" action, as that's probably what they believe most FPS gamers want. I'd love to be surprised, though! :D
Title: Re: Spec Ops: The Line Post by: The_Flying_Dove on January 17, 2010, 06:00:50 PM Well, in the interview, Greg Kasavin mentioned that the game will be very narrative-driven, so I don't think that it will be just another FPS game. It'll be more like Bioshock, Deus Ex, or any other FPS game with a good plot. Sadly, very few FPSs ever care about anything else than the shooting, even if it means glorifying violence. Why should games be stuck in the "little kiddie" realm? This medium deserves to be good for both adults and children. By saying that games are fine the way they are right now, one is saying that it's okay for them to limit their ideas and never push for more creative freedom. Do we really want to see games being the same in the next 50 years? Sure, your children (or grandchildren) might enjoy it, but you will probably have grown tired of video games by then, if all remains the same.
Title: Re: Spec Ops: The Line Post by: falsion on January 17, 2010, 06:02:57 PM The thing is with FPS games is that most people will chose whatever option lets them shoot people anyway, since that's what people play them for. Kinda like how the "No Russian" airport scene in Modern Warfare 2 was meant to make you feel some tinge of morality but people just ended up shooting everything up anyway.
Title: Re: Spec Ops: The Line Post by: The_Flying_Dove on January 17, 2010, 06:06:27 PM But you don't think that many people would be turned off if a game provided some very horrifying results from killing someone, or would you? MW2 really wasn't that special with its story at all. Only one level was shocking. It didn't move the game into a darker state after that. That's exactly what happened with Saving Private Ryan. The beginning of the movie is very graphic, but the rest of the movie isn't all that impressive.
As more games take up non-linearity, I'm sure that their stories and characters as well as gameplay will evolve further. FPS games have just started popularizing open-ended gameplay. System Shock was the first one to do that, but its impact wasn't big enough. Now we have games like Bioshock, Crysis, Far Cry 2, STALKER, and several others that are pushing this genre forward. It's only a matter of time before games try to portray their characters and situations as close to reality as possible. Title: Re: Spec Ops: The Line Post by: Christian Knudsen on January 18, 2010, 03:14:15 AM Why should games be stuck in the "little kiddie" realm? This medium deserves to be good for both adults and children. By saying that games are fine the way they are right now, one is saying that it's okay for them to limit their ideas and never push for more creative freedom. When did I say that? I said that I'm skeptical that a mayor studio will actually carry through on those statements. You have a strange way of taking peoples' critique of the games you post about (which I assume you have no personal investment in?) very personal... Title: Re: Spec Ops: The Line Post by: SirNiko on January 18, 2010, 05:26:35 AM I always considered Metal Gear Solid as the anti-war game. To get the highest score and unlock all the special content you need to beat the game without killing anyone. There were lots of fun ways to fight if you intended to kill people, but in the end the game drives you towards avoiding people and using non-lethal force to accomplish pretty much everything. Which is sort of ironic, since that means that all the different guns in the game go ignored in favor of the tranq gun.
I'm not convinced by your blurb that this game offers anything significantly different than games before it. When the game comes out and people start playing it, only then could I really say if the moral decisions are designed in a way that tickles the brain in a fashion not yet seen. In others, more show, less tell. The sandstorm survival aspect could be neat, depending on implementation. -SirNiko Title: Re: Spec Ops: The Line Post by: falsion on January 18, 2010, 07:53:39 AM But you don't think that many people would be turned off if a game provided some very horrifying results from killing someone, or would you? MW2 really wasn't that special with its story at all. Only one level was shocking. It didn't move the game into a darker state after that. That's exactly what happened with Saving Private Ryan. The beginning of the movie is very graphic, but the rest of the movie isn't all that impressive. People love horrifying results though, as long as they're not real. MW2 wasn't the best example, but there have been many games with moral choices where you could be a complete monster and do terrible things, and guess what? People do them anyway and, in fact, enjoy doing them. It's all about "schadenfreude." Same reason why people can be a complete ass on the internet, troll people and even cause harm to them without even thinking about it, but in real life, they'd think twice about doing so. You'd be surprised how just the simple fact that someone is behind a computer (or console) or thinks "it's just a game" can change the way people act. The biggest flaw in any video game attempt to implement morality is failure to realize this. I don't see how this will be any different. Title: Re: Spec Ops: The Line Post by: Renton on January 18, 2010, 08:07:10 AM You will need to choose between obeying your orders, or disobeying them to do what's right. In other words, it is aiming for a shades of gray morality, rather than a black and white one. That sounds pretty black and white to me.Title: Re: Spec Ops: The Line Post by: PaleFox on January 18, 2010, 09:20:32 AM It's all about "schadenfreude." Same reason why people can be a complete ass on the internet, troll people and even cause harm to them without even thinking about it, but in real life, they'd think twice about doing so. You'd be surprised how just the simple fact that someone is behind a computer (or console) or thinks "it's just a game" can change the way people act. This is true. Imagine you are playing, say, Morrowind. Does anyone play Morrowind and not murder or steal? No, because you can get away with it. And even if you couldn't, if your character is locked up or what have you, he is only a character on the screen. Video games imply an inherent abstraction from reality, no matter how realistic (or indeed, how stylized) the game is or the results are. In order for it to have an impact, results have to be irreversible, which is not viable for a big budget title -- and even then, it's still only a character who doesn't exist. It's not been very common for people to connect with their persona in the game, and generally people blame it on writing, but I think that frankly it is because games are not capable of this sort of artistry. (This is not to say they are incapable of all artistry, just this type) Does this make sense? Title: Re: Spec Ops: The Line Post by: undertech on January 18, 2010, 12:01:32 PM This game gives you too much ammunition for it to be possibly anti-war.
Title: Re: Spec Ops: The Line Post by: The_Flying_Dove on January 18, 2010, 12:34:43 PM It's all about "schadenfreude." Same reason why people can be a complete ass on the internet, troll people and even cause harm to them without even thinking about it, but in real life, they'd think twice about doing so. You'd be surprised how just the simple fact that someone is behind a computer (or console) or thinks "it's just a game" can change the way people act. This is true. Imagine you are playing, say, Morrowind. Does anyone play Morrowind and not murder or steal? No, because you can get away with it. And even if you couldn't, if your character is locked up or what have you, he is only a character on the screen. Video games imply an inherent abstraction from reality, no matter how realistic (or indeed, how stylized) the game is or the results are. In order for it to have an impact, results have to be irreversible, which is not viable for a big budget title -- and even then, it's still only a character who doesn't exist. It's not been very common for people to connect with their persona in the game, and generally people blame it on writing, but I think that frankly it is because games are not capable of this sort of artistry. (This is not to say they are incapable of all artistry, just this type) Does this make sense? You said that people usually won't treat their actions in games as in reality because they're just playing as avatars, so it's surprising how people blame games on terrible events. But I'm positively sure that non-fiction content could have people think more about what they decide to do in games. Title: Re: Spec Ops: The Line Post by: The_Flying_Dove on January 18, 2010, 12:47:53 PM I really get irritated whenever people say that games just can't be at the same stage as literature and cinema. This perception has been held by many people partly because too few games have been controversial enough to focus on real events. Mainstream games are probably going to be the last ones to break through this mold. Too much criticism from the press will only halt the production of a game like this. So, I believe that hope lies in indie games for challenging this industry to be less censored.
Title: Re: Spec Ops: The Line Post by: Christian Knudsen on January 18, 2010, 02:48:51 PM Seriously, who are you arguing with? It seems as if you're counter-arguing points that nobody has made?
Title: Re: Spec Ops: The Line Post by: SirNiko on January 18, 2010, 02:53:47 PM I always considered the best 'shades of gray' moral choice ever to be choosing whether to team up or fight with Magus in Chrono Trigger. (Which is a pretty darn mainstream game)
On one hand, if you fought him, you would break Frog's curse (And get a 'better' ending), and ensure Magus can't do any more black magic evil (whether or not he had a reason for doing so, you gotta admit the guy was evil!). On the other hand, sparing him seems like the more noble thing to do, and it gives you a new party member to boot. But then frog stays cursed forever. Neither answer was right. Neither answer was wrong. And whichever one you picked, you had to live with it for another 3-6 hours until you beat the game. It's one of the few times in a video game I actually had to stop and think about what option to pick, and I'm the type who always tends to go with the 'good' choices (partly because they tend to give the best loot). -SirNiko Title: Re: Spec Ops: The Line Post by: Christian Knudsen on January 18, 2010, 03:16:44 PM Well, usually it's young people who are ignorant and don't follow reality closely in the media. I'm sure that many adults out there are more interested in meaningful works than anything else. With that said, I think that adults would actually be the ones to care more for their actions within a game than a child would. If more games were based on real stories or events that happened, I'm pretty sure that people would give a damn as to what happens to their characters. Even games like the one that was based on the Columbine Massacre, despite their controversies, are a good step forward. People just have to learn to respect this medium better and treat it like every other medium. You said that people usually won't treat their actions in games as in reality because they're just playing as avatars, so it's surprising how people blame games on terrible events. But I'm positively sure that non-fiction content could have people think more about what they decide to do in games. I disagree. Whether a story is based on actual events or not has no bearing on my involvement in that story -- only whether the characters and the way the story is told is interesting. Just because a movie is "based on actual events" doesn't mean I'm automatically more engaged in it. Are you arguing that people are automatically more engaged in a story that's based on actual events? And why are you even talking about this in regards to a game in which Dubai is destroyed by a massive sandstorm? Last I heard, that didn't actually happen... Title: Re: Spec Ops: The Line Post by: gunmaggot on January 18, 2010, 03:22:49 PM I really get irritated whenever people say that games just can't be at the same stage as literature and cinema. This perception has been held by many people partly because too few games have been controversial enough to focus on real events. Mainstream games are probably going to be the last ones to break through this mold. Too much criticism from the press will only halt the production of a game like this. So, I believe that hope lies in indie games for challenging this industry to be less censored. Literature and cinema, fart. Stories are stupid puppet shows for gay babies - lrn 2 understand & apply abstract concepts, noob. Videogames!!! :handmetalL: :ninja: :handmetalR: Title: Re: Spec Ops: The Line Post by: falsion on January 18, 2010, 04:02:33 PM I really get irritated whenever people say that games just can't be at the same stage as literature and cinema. This perception has been held by many people partly because too few games have been controversial enough to focus on real events. Mainstream games are probably going to be the last ones to break through this mold. Too much criticism from the press will only halt the production of a game like this. So, I believe that hope lies in indie games for challenging this industry to be less censored. Who said that? I'm probably the least bit inclined to fall under that category as Policenauts changed my outlook on several things and made me think about the implications of human space colonization (and other very real, controversial issues that I can't discuss as they're huge spoilers, though I can say that I've never seen any game even touch those subjects). I don't know if I could say the same for any book or movie I've ever read. Let's get back on subject. Morality systems. Do they work? Well, several games have tried them before and from my experience, no they do not. Title: Re: Spec Ops: The Line Post by: Inanimate on January 18, 2010, 04:11:01 PM Morality systems don't work because they aren't really morality systems... it's more like a Naught or Nice system. The real moral conflicts come from antinomy, when two things clash and are not strictly 'evil' or 'good'... a choice between one important man or an entire backwater town, for instance. That's a moral choice. But a choice between killing someone or saving someone... that's not.
Title: Re: Spec Ops: The Line Post by: falsion on January 18, 2010, 04:24:20 PM Morality systems don't work because they aren't really morality systems... it's more like a Naught or Nice system. The real moral conflicts come from antinomy, when two things clash and are not strictly 'evil' or 'good'... a choice between one important man or an entire backwater town, for instance. That's a moral choice. But a choice between killing someone or saving someone... that's not. You could nuke an entire town in Fallout 3. Most people didn't even think twice about doing so. I remember thousands of posts on various video game boards of people doing it, gleefully even. Why? I don't know. Go figure. If any indication though, doing something in a virtual world is a lot different than real life. I'm not saying it's impossible for games to have any effect on the player, I'm saying that in order to do so, they have to avoid limitations such as these. For example, they can't rely on the player to make moral choices applied to something they're completely detached from. You can't say, don't do X, it's evil and expect them not to do it anyway. Edit: And if they do however, make it have actual permanent consequences on the player besides just getting a bad ending or something like that. The thing is, what are real consequences you can put on the player that would actually affect them besides something shallow like taking the good ending from them? Are there any? That's where the real problem lies. Title: Re: Spec Ops: The Line Post by: dEnamed on January 18, 2010, 04:32:16 PM Oh dear lord, the dreaded "Anti-War" has come to the realm of games. I've never had any respect for newer Anti War Movies, because all they seemed to do was add extra ounces of splatter and heroic/patriotic nonsense and get away with it by tagging it "Anti-War". Low Age Ratings included. I just hope it does not turn out the same way for games.
Games actually can pull off the necessary Anti Aspect, but not by providing some silly black/white moral choices but instead by taking choices away from him. The scene in Call of Duty where you're forced to storm a beach, under fire, people dying everywhere with nothing but a bloody ammunition clip in your hand - Anti-War. Or if you're using choices, make it like in the Witcher. A seemingly no-brainer obvious good choice at the time of making that decision can turn out to have really nasty effects later on with no way for the player to anticipate it. For something to be Anti-War it has to picture how pointless and chaotic war really is. How little good intentions can do in the face of war. If it's just some random "disobey orders to save people" they at least need to have the balls to include the results of such. Give the player his seconds of glory, have him smile at the lives he's saved, all inclusive heroic music. Then show him what happened then: Have his AI Teammate gun them down regardless and arrest you, fade over to your characters execution. Title: Re: Spec Ops: The Line Post by: Christian Knudsen on January 18, 2010, 04:39:23 PM You could nuke an entire town in Fallout 3. Most people didn't even think twice about doing so. I remember thousands of posts on various video game boards of people doing it, gleefully even. Why? I don't know. Go figure. I think PF nailed it: "In order for it to have an impact, results have to be irreversible." You can always replay the game and chose not to blow up Megaton. Imagine if blowing up Megaton would actually result in the game deleting all code related to Megaton so your choice was written in stone. Then players would definitely give it more thought. Movies and litterature is different. If a character dies, that character is dead. You can't decide to 'play' the movie or book again and not have that character die. Most games are about world exploration. The choices we make in those games is also an exploration; of the game's narrative. That's why most players will make 'immoral' choices in a game -- to see what the consequences are. How it affects the story. What cutscene we'll get. Title: Re: Spec Ops: The Line Post by: Danmark on January 18, 2010, 04:57:57 PM The old Spec Ops games sucked ass, good thing this one seems to only have a title in common with them.
Been looking forward to this since I saw the trailer. Partly the astounding graphics (though it remains to be seen how honestly they're presented there), but mostly I'm in love with the theme; sand ridden post-apocalyptic Dubai infested by rogue US troops. Fuck yeah! It's a bizarre retelling of Heart of Darkness/Apocalypse Now. Ordinarily thematic elements and graphics aren't enough to sell me on a game, so I think they're pretty amazing. Hope it turns out as good as it looks. Title: Re: Spec Ops: The Line Post by: The_Flying_Dove on January 18, 2010, 05:16:14 PM I don't know why I keep coming to these forums, even though I don't enjoy it very much. It's only become one of the things that has been keeping me more and more isolated from society. And reading all kinds of journalism about video games has only made me feel pessimistic. I don't care anymore about what happens with this industry. It's too much for me to go on like this. There is still some meaningfulness in games. Not all games may have something smart to say, but the same goes for music, movies, TV shows, etc. Also, ever since I've been this way, I haven't been playing games as often as I used to.
These endless debates are just as pointless as it is to talk about which console is the best one out there (I've grown out of it a long while ago). So, maybe this will be the last time that I hang around these forums, or not. But I now realize that constantly thinking about video games becoming more like the other mediums has only become an obsession for me. Life is far more valuable than escapism. Being too materialistic is the main thing that is dragging society down. And perhaps that's where a minimalist life would do a lot of good to heal those wounds. http://www.budgetsaresexy.com/2009/08/living-minimalist-lifestyle-is-it.html http://theminimalist.net/2009/05/14/income-distribution-vs-happiness/ "The secret of happiness, you see, is not found in seeking more, but in developing the capacity to enjoy less." - Socrates Title: Re: Spec Ops: The Line Post by: Christian Knudsen on January 18, 2010, 05:24:23 PM :o
Dude, you seem to have some serious issues going on. I really think you need to forget about the internet and games for a few days. Go for a walk. Hang out with friends and family. Title: Re: Spec Ops: The Line Post by: falsion on January 18, 2010, 05:26:41 PM I don't know why I keep coming to these forums, even though I don't enjoy it very much. It's only become one of the things that has been keeping me more and more isolated from society. And reading all kinds of journalism about video games has only made me feel pessimistic. I don't care anymore about what happens with this industry. It's too much for me to go on like this. There is still some meaningfulness in games. Not all games may have something smart to say, but the same goes for music, movies, TV shows, etc. Also, ever since I've been this way, I haven't been playing games as often as I used to. These endless debates are just as pointless as it is to talk about which console is the best one out there (I've grown out of it a long while ago). So, maybe this will be the last time that I hang around these forums, or not. But I now realize that constantly thinking about video games becoming more like the other mediums has only become an obsession for me. Life is far more valuable than escapism. Being too materialistic is the main thing that is dragging society down. And perhaps that's where a minimalist life would do a lot of good to heal those wounds. http://www.budgetsaresexy.com/2009/08/living-minimalist-lifestyle-is-it.html http://theminimalist.net/2009/05/14/income-distribution-vs-happiness/ "The secret of happiness, you see, is not found in seeking more, but in developing the capacity to enjoy less." - Socrates Um... I don't quite follow what you're saying at all. Are we even on the same page here? Who is debating consoles? I didn't see anyone debate that here. Did you accidentally post on the wrong thread? Title: Re: Spec Ops: The Line Post by: Christian Knudsen on January 18, 2010, 05:28:12 PM I think he's in full-on meltdown mode.
Title: Re: Spec Ops: The Line Post by: Inanimate on January 18, 2010, 05:33:48 PM His logic core has imploded. He is merely spiraling into shut down.
Title: Re: Spec Ops: The Line Post by: PsySal on January 18, 2010, 05:36:46 PM These endless debates are just as pointless as it is to talk about which console is the best one out there (I've grown out of it a long while ago). So, maybe this will be the last time that I hang around these forums, or not. But I now realize that constantly thinking about video games becoming more like the other mediums has only become an obsession for me. Ah, I kind of agree. I'm not sure it relates exactly to materialism but I think we're all getting a bit tired of trying to find "meaning" in games. I think it still needs to be explored, for sure! But I know that for myself I'm a bit tired of analyzing everything I do as a game developer. And actually, fun is meaningful. I agree when increpare says that not all games need to be fun. But at the same time, fun itself is legitimate. A lot of... OH DEAR HERE WE GO AGAIN! Mkay so over and out. Go do something relaxing and out-of-doors, and for awhile just forget about games before you are driven STARK RAVING MAD! Peace... Title: Re: Spec Ops: The Line Post by: falsion on January 18, 2010, 05:42:53 PM I hope you're okay. I was looking forward to discussing the topic of morality systems in games, and maybe hoping you could convince me otherwise. But, uh.... yeah, I think you need to go do something else. Take a nice big break away from the computer, or games for that matter. :concerned:
Title: Re: Spec Ops: The Line Post by: undertech on January 18, 2010, 07:44:34 PM Here's a nice way to recuperate: go swimming somewhere. It worked for A. B. Nobel!
Title: Re: Spec Ops: The Line Post by: William Broom on January 18, 2010, 07:57:16 PM Morality systems don't work because they aren't really morality systems... it's more like a Naught or Nice system. The real moral conflicts come from antinomy, when two things clash and are not strictly 'evil' or 'good'... a choice between one important man or an entire backwater town, for instance. That's a moral choice. But a choice between killing someone or saving someone... that's not. You could nuke an entire town in Fallout 3. Most people didn't even think twice about doing so. I remember thousands of posts on various video game boards of people doing it, gleefully even. Why? I don't know. Go figure. Flying Dove, I hope you'll be ok. If it's any consolation, I think most people on this forum actually agree with the things you say, in a broad sense: That games can have meaning, can be for adults, and so on. It's just that you phrase everything so seriously that it invites people to argue with you. Just loosen up a bit. Title: Re: Spec Ops: The Line Post by: Gimym JIMBERT on January 18, 2010, 08:43:00 PM If game try to be art with meaning, it's pretentious
If gamer try to find meaning in game, it's bullshit ??? Duchamp quit art for game on his late, he said game are greater than art ??? ??? Sure he didn't know video games ??? ??? ??? Nah, i quit! Title: Re: Spec Ops: The Line Post by: moi on January 18, 2010, 08:50:07 PM art is shit. Game is shit. Therefore Game is art.
-Einstein Title: Re: Spec Ops: The Line Post by: falsion on January 18, 2010, 08:52:07 PM I can't even figure out what this topic is about anymore. We may as well just lock it. :shrug2:
Title: Re: Spec Ops: The Line Post by: moi on January 18, 2010, 08:53:25 PM We may as well lock culture
-Sartres |