TIGSource Forums

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/29522/FemaleFocused_Silicon_Sisters_Interactive_Opens_In_Vancouver.php


Seems kind of strange to pigeonhole an entire sex this way, everyone, regardless of sex has individual likes and dislikes which overlap.

we'll see what comes out of it and laugh appropriately i guess

I would like eva's opinion on this.

well... it's not like by and large most video games aren't aimed toward guys

No, you're right, it's second nature.

they don't explicitly say it, but that's what they're basically aimed towards anyway

i mean, playboy isn't explicitly aimed towards men either, and some females do read it

but... Playboy is explicitly a "men's magazine"

Why is it sexist to note that different sexes are different? I was under the impression that it was pretty much a psychological and scientific fact that males and females don't tend to think about things the exact same way.

It's also kinda ironic that this is being labeled "sexist", considering that the games which come out of it will likely be less sexist than many produced by mainstream game studios. I mean, look at all the shrinking armor in MMOs and the number of (a) lead female characters with (b) realistic body proportions.

on this subject, i think videogames are ageist too -- they tend to appeal to kids and teens and young adults, and don't really appeal to older folk; i think that's a bigger problem than sexism in games. i'd like to see more games designed to appeal to people in their 30s and 40s rather than teens and 20s.

The videogame industry is sexist like nothing on earth that doesn't work with trucks. The last game company I was in had 45 workers, three of which were female (one secretary, one cleaner and a single artist).

I say good luck to this.

from http://twitter.com/bbrathwaite

So, they're going to make MMO's and casual games?

who knows; maybe they'll just make third person shooters where you play as a woman who doesn't look like lara croft

Amazing how much more effective spending your own money to create the company you want is compared to writing on the internet about how every video game company is full of racist sexist homophobic unoriginal mysogynists.

But you can't be sexist against men... (http://i.imgur.com/Azu60.png)

Sounds pretty reasonable. It sounds a lot better than that ted talk i watched a while ago which was supposedly studying how girls game and came to the conclusion that the games should be all about high school, makeup, getting boys, and shopping. I guess that was aimed at a different age group though. Will be interesting to see what they come up with. If they do it well i can imagine that i'll quite like their games, not being into the traditionally macho shooter man-games.

That said, that's really the only genre that i think is aimed at any specific sex. That and maybe most rpg's. Platformers seem to be pretty asexual, boy and his blob, mario galaxy, that awesome looking new kirby game, they all seem like they'd appeal to everyone. Also strategy games, whilst maybe the core mechanic is more of a guy thing, seem pretty unmacho.

Also that ladies twitter feed seems weird. I remember keenly following the dev of warhammer online, and one of the most informative and well liked devs who revealed things was a woman. Also assassin's creed, loads of big studios have pretty senior female developers/designers/producers these days.

hahaha, or maybe people make assumptions or try to twist things so they fit into their preconceived worldview, like somebody in this thread...

Makes sense to have a female games company, that way the men can focus on making quality manly games.

its definitely a better solution than to whine about the ridiculous games some of us guys make

hey i said we'd laugh appropriately but who knows maybe they'll do something good i didnt say anything about us HAVING to laugh, not laughing is laughing appropriately if its the situation

good luck to them i guess

I've never met her, but this I would be very surprised at from her writing.

And aiming product at a particular target audience isn't necessarily sexist.  This is just some people making the games that they want to play; good for them.

Hopefu this will be a good think for the mainstream games industry. I for one would like to see new unisex games, and less at either en of the spectrum; ie the gears clones and the pink barbie lookalikes.

Hang on, is it even legal to have a female employee only company? I know you'd be pretty screwed if you tried that in the uk.

You win. :handthumbsupL:

sure? being female seems to be a nescessary qualification for making female minded games that are made by females. are there such antidiscrimination restrictions even for newspaper columns for women by women?

i wonder if the company name is a sarcastic allusion to breast implants...

btw pls rename the thread title to "Sexiest game studio [...]" ;)

The difference is that when they hire for the position of "column writer for a women's magazine" they can't say that the job has to be taken by a woman. A woman would probably get it because they are better suited (maybe). You can't say this company only hires women right out. Equal rights gets a bit nuts at times. Like you can have adverts for women only car insurance companies, and yet guys aren't allowed to have men only clubs? The bertrum wooster in me goes  :outraged:

Anyway, if the game's main design and vision is done by women i don't see why that means everyone in the company needs to be a woman. Seems like fighting fire with fire, but whatever. Good luck to em. The little darlings!

If you think this is good humour kill yourself.

I think they confused games with sandwiches.

Sexism in games is flawed, as are feminist analyses of games. If there's an evil woman who's good to look at, then the game is sexist as it portrays women as evil and having to look good. If there's a good woman who looks fugly in the game, then the game is sexist as it objectifies women as ugly and having to be good.

A studio that goes out of it's way to aim towards a specific gender is in itself sexist, because it's stereotyping the gender into a single personality that they can aim at.

This annoys me at a level that's half-way between "completely non-annoying" and feminism.

The article doesn't say that everyone in the company is a woman, or that they only hire women.  Just that it's owned by two women and that currently all the designers are women.

Ah yeah, good point.  :-[

All the women I know play video games and non of them have ever complained that there aren't enough games that cater to their tastes. In fact most of them have larger game collections  than me. I don't even think that the majority of games that are released are macho FPSs. I think it just seems that way due to the mainly male orientated gaming press/marketing dept. focusing on those games.

Lansing, what the hell is up with you? If it was a only-male company making games for women you wouldn't be all up in arms about it.

I think it is generally a good idea to focus on special target groups and to obtain a company image. Brandings like "especially for women/men" etc. are very powerful and useful for consumers to recognize a product as interesting.

I don't think it is sexist to make games especially for women. This is the same like making games especially for young boys or students. Look at the anime industry - it just works...

People are heterogenous - we can not tell what somebody likes - but we can guess with data like sex, age, culture group etc.

you do realize that your anecdotal experience is quite atypical, right?

controversy = publicity.

well, they kinda do. in AAA they will say "look, this is our core demographic for this game - male 22-30. they generally like and know these brands, and read these magazines, and watch these TV shows". etc..

Uh. Aiming at a particular target audience is not the same as just making games you want to play.

Just making a game you want to play yourself is a bit of a fuck you to target audiences and such. And it results in better games. Silicon Sisters are instead going to make bad games. I mean, they must necessarily be games that they themselves will consider worse than the games they would have made if they just made stuff they wanted to play.

It is one instance of it, where the target audience is "self".

What I got out of that article (though I may be placing my own interpretation on it) is that the founders of Silicon Sisters
- are female gamers who feel inadequately catered for in their game tastes by both mainstream (male-targeted?) games and "girl games"
- intend to target their games at female gamers who feel inadequately catered for in their game tastes by both mainstream games and "girl games".

The glass is half-full.

i thought about it and maybe they'll do any game any other studio would've made with the fact that they're women not changing anything

zing bam women like the same games

I'm all for hiring women, even if they decide to hire only women. It will cast a positive light that being a woman developer is a legitimate career path. The point will be even further punctuated if they are a great success and the mainstream studios will have to take on and compete with their viewpoint.

Then again, I will be entirely disappointed if they release some sort of fashion or doll house game.

How is this any different than women deciding the mainstream porn on the market isn't appealing and producing porn primarily made and aimed at a female market?

If you don't like the games they produce, you don't have to buy them.  That's how the free market works.

oh look, a company catering to a demographic. Sounds like a business doing things businesses do. What is the issue

I don't think I agree. My impression (from what they said about not being interested in making stereotypical pink princess style games) is that the studio wants to make games that avoid the sorts of tropes that are offputting to many women (exploitative depiction of women, overly violent gameplay, etc.), not necessarily make games that aim at any specific idea of what a woman is. As someone else said, maybe they're just making games they want to play. Isn't that something that the indie game world usually applauds?

Also, I find it interesting that the studio talks about making games for women rather than making games for girls. The latter is something of an existing target market; the former not really.

I don't think there is much issue with it here. The response on this thread seems to be somewhere between "meh" and "interesting". Some people here are just misinterpreting other people and putting words in their mouthes. I suggest them to tune down their defences a little bit.

If it's just about the technicality then I'll maybe argue that you don't "aim" at yourself :P

But sure, whatever. These gals are saying that their target audience is like half of mankind or so. That sounds pretty far away from just making a game you want to play. It also sounds pretty bland.


It's not all that different from whatever else. It's marketing. Doesn't taste too good. Nothing out of the ordinary.

On the one hand, I've never personally heard any of my lady gamer friends complain that games are not to their tastes.

On the other, it doesn't say that these games are games for ladies and only ladies will be allowed to buy them.


My roommate, a girl person, play Modern Warfare 2, which I am certain was targeted towards classic 18-22 year old males. I, a boy person, do not, because I think it's kind of dumb and boring. Even the most targeted demographics don't exclude people, it's just a form of trying to give people what they're most likely to enjoy. i don't think this company is necessary, but if they think they can handle it effectively, make people happy, and make a profit, they can go for it. As long as I'm allowed to play their games.

This.


You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. Saying that catering to a demographic is "sexist" just makes you look like a childish misogynist. There's a demographic for pretty much every product that gets manufactured and marketed, including games. Are games companies that make games in languages you don't understand racist? Are all games that don't feature openly gay characters homophobic?

Let's not turn this into a politically correct topic. We have enough of an infringement on our freedom of speech, with all of the hate speech laws that are now in place. Many of today's children and young adults are so ignorant already. Before we know it (if this persists), America will one day become a Marxist society (where the critical theory was born, with all of the ideas for feminism and other forms of equality).

Going back to the topic itself, I really don't see why a studio can't be all male-oriented or female-oriented. Maybe something good will actually come out of this decision. Besides, some inequality is a good thing for capitalism.

Let's play Gender Wars (http://www.mobygames.com/game/gender-wars)!  :screamy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqBKNESylQE

Yeah. My impression is they're trying to make games that are friendlier to female players, in a non-stereotypical sense (i.e. not "Shopping: The Game"), not games that exclude male players.

My girlfriend is not into video games, but I showed her Seiklus and Knytt and she was hooked by them, specifically because they centered around exploring and the beauty of the areas in the game rather than a bunch of violence. The only other video game she's been very interested in is Audiosurf. I see those games as being friendlier to female players (I'm going to say here that female gamers who enjoy really violent games and whatnot are hugely in the minority as regards the gender as a whole, even though they're the majority of the female component of the "gamer" sphere) because they are not very violent and not exploitative in any way, but they're certainly not unfriendly to male players. Some more examples of games like this would be Myst and the old LucasArts adventure games.

I mean, who knows what kinds of games they're going to end up making, but if it's games like any of the above then I'd be way into it.

Pardon my chatspeak, but WTF?

1) not everyone here is American, and 2) how does this even pertain to the discussion?

Uuh. Those examples don't even imply that the target audience would be a particular race, or heterosexual people, so there's very little reason for that to follow from what lansig said.

I mean, if it was like Caucasian Studios releasing their Games For Caucasian Pack and telling everyone that the games are for Caucasians, then...


Lol.

Please, excuse me, Brother Android. I meant to say not only that America is becoming more socialist as a country, but many other parts of the world, too, especially Europe (look at the UK). This is related to the discussion, in that some people find this studio to be sexist, which I see as a form of hate speech. Did you not know that a theory based around equality (like feminism, gay rights, etc.) that was developed by some Communist Russians at the Frankfurt School? Or maybe you're not so familiar with political correctness then?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKCjKDtOKrI

I thought you were talking about how less political correctness was needed in this discussion.

Okay, once again, you've misunderstood me. When I said that I see the studio as a form of hate speech, I only meant that people would look at it that way, and that they would say "you're comments are sexist." I was just trying to tell you what others may be thinking, not what I think. For instance, courts may put you in jail or give you other penalties for calling an obese person "fat" and so on. In addition, many of today's universities do not allow for all kinds of debates. There cannot be any disagreement, especially when it pertains to having less equality.

THEY are the ones that are intolerant of hate speech, NOT me. Yet, don't misinterpret my words again, thinking that I'm a racist, or sexist, or hateful towards non-heterosexuals because I'm not.

But then again, even if it is bias in the form of PC (political correctness), I would assume that many forums have adopted this "justice" in the form of equality, so I guess that I don't have a right to say anything that may seem (even if it isn't) racist, sexist, etc.

And so, with that said, let's either lay off this topic, or discuss what good may come from it.

When I hear the name "Silicon Sisters" computer software is the second thing that comes to mind.

-SirNiko

Or third.

"Silicon Knights" was the first thing that came to my mind when I heard of this studio's name. Those studio's founders probably just look at "Silicon Knights" and removed the word "Knights," replacing it with "Sisters." Oh, yeah. How very original that is. (Of course, this is a joke.)

P.S. I'm no longer a conspiracy theorist anymore. Instead, I am much more focused on my own religion (Christianity). I've thought long and hard about the internet's inaccuracies on various pieces of information that I find it easy for anyone to accept the internet, especially if one is so dependent on it. That's probably one of the reasons why today's people's attention spans are so much shorter than, say, the people that lived in the 19th century (when it began our attention spans began to grow shorter).

So, please don't bring up the subject anymore around me, and I will be most certain to not bring it up either. If anything, I'll bash it into the ground.

I can't tell if you're joking or not :(

Flying Dove, you're still making long paragraphs about subjects that do not pertain to the discussion, derailing it. If you want to talk about something, wait until a thread about the subject in particular is created before you discuss it. Your initial paragraph about freedom of speech had very little, if anything, to do with what we're talking about here. And nobody asked you if you were a conspiracy theorist still.

Watch out Melly, or he'll bash you into the ground.

I don't know whether to applaud Silicon Sisters, or not. Right now, we still don't know enough about what kinds of games it will be working on. And sadly, even if this game developer does come up with some very incredible, meaningful, and innovative ideas, it will likely disappear from the news rather quickly. We hardly ever hear anything about gaming that is different. Obviously, those games which are marketed the most will continue to be heard way more than anything else.

Oh, it'll be a long time before this industry is a mature one and more than just a place for young boys.

Why is my experience atypical? Or are you just plucking that out of thin air? I have no official stats or figures so I'm just basing my opinion on what I see around me. And all I can see is women playing their DSs, Wiis and Xboxs, or sat in front of a PC for hours at a time playing Zuma, Tetris, The Sims, WoW, etc, etc. If you have some research to show me that says otherwise then I'll gladly change my opinion.

People will only perceive things as they appear.  Maybe her behavior is passive, not assertive.  /speculation.
[/quote]

possible but it's still kinda sad that the first thing that comes to your mind when you see an overt example of sexism in the industry is the blaming the victim 'maybe she just sees what she wants to see' thing

I'm going to back this up.

It's old info from 2008, but it's still pretty relevant.

http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/ESA_EF_2008.pdf

As of 2007:
the Male to Female ratio was 60/40 (Page 3)
It's also 56/44 for online games (Page 9)

On Page 5, Shooters made up only 12% of games sold.

And yet, looking at Gamespots Games of the year Nominees for 2007
http://shiben.blogspot.com/2007/12/gamespots-best-of-2007-game-awards.html

We get:
Halo,
Crysis,
Call of Duty: Modern Warfare,
Bioshock,
Orange Box

That's 5/11 are Shooters.
If I can gather stats for other years I don't think it would be too far off either, but that's far too much work.

http://gigaom.com/2010/02/17/average-social-gamer-is-a-43-year-old-woman/
is interesting as well but it's more social game specific.

It's not so much that games are macho, but it's that game advertising and news is focussed on the macho games.

The first thing: Pinky game should be shameful? more than blowing stuff? I bet raising a child and bonding with friends is things which are "not cool in real life"... ???

Second things: http://www.herinteractive.com/About_Her_Interactive
OMG sexist game company  :epileptic:

Whenever i look at big REAL game chart i see their game, wow, the sims and some nintendo game.  :shrug2: and they never ever drop off




...



But yeah animal crossing selling 11M is not a big deal, but assassin's creed only selling 1 is party time. Hardcore culture and mainstream is totally fucked up about realities.

Thanks Ntero, that's useful info. 60-40 is fairly decent split.

Did she have to dress like a slut?

I was originally going to say something in support of this, as I have several female friends who have very nearly identical tastes in games to me (with perhaps slight shifts in that they seem to tend towards avatar customization and roleplaying over crunchy problem solving etc.). However, I'm not sure if this is the result of guys and girls naturally having the same interests, or girls just having no choice but to play the same games as the guys and they got used to it. If somebody had produced a series of Legend of Zelda style games where you play as a female hero rescuing a prince, with production values equal to Nintendo's series, would my friend prefer those? I think it's possible they would.

Also it's possible I'm friends with them simply because they do like the same games as me. Possible observation bias maybe?

I could see some minor things that would be "girl friendly", such as more focus on female avatars and avoiding typical "Man saves damsel" plotlines that permeate a lot of top titles (Such as nearly the entirety of the Super Mario Bros and Zelda series, two of my friend's favorites).

For the most part, though, I agree with the sentiment that the idea of "Making games for girls" is needlessly locking yourself into a smaller market when most gamer trends are gender neutral (or appear to be so). But, Silicon Sisters thinks they know a part of the market is underserved, so let them at it. We'll see what they devise and then see whether or not it is successful.

I'd like to see a Duke Nukem style game with a cocky egotistical female hero who regularly exploits half-naked males while she makes witty one-liners. If nothing else, it would be absolutely hilarious.

-SirNiko

Seriously, I wish everyone would just stop talking about sexism in games. There should not be companies opening to cater to female tastes. There should not be discussion about this. There should not be complaining about how certain characters are sexist and show how sexist their creators are. If there are not enough women in gaming, don't whinge about how games are sexist, go talk to some of your female friends and show them how awesome games are! If you don't like how many female characters in games dress or act or whatever, make some games of your own with "nontypical" women! If you're sick of burly muscular men doing manly things, go make a game where a woman does womanly things, or a game where a woman does manly things, or a game where a man does womanly things!

It's not that hard! We are indie gamers, and we are of both genders, and all of one species. We should not be giving a single shit about sexism.

What the fuck do you mean here? O_o If you mean that feminism annoys you, what the hell sort of person does that make you. HOW COULD THAT ANNOY ANYONE?!
Feminism is about equality, not taking rights away from men or whatever. As you haven't clarified, it makes it look like you're one of the many, many people that see giving power to any oppressed group as taking power away from the group that isn't oppressed. It shouldn't even be an issue, but because of the ridiculous sexist legislature people have to wade through and the idiotic labels of "controversial" from people who don't even understand what they're opposing (like you seem to be doing here) the pathetic excuse for a debate or whatever has continued for >40 years in the public eye, and for centuries beforehand. The mainstream oppression of women should be what annoys you, not feminism, and the fact that you're saying things like that without thinking is exactly the problem.
Go and read some feminist literature and educate yourself on the matter before you come off like you just have. Heck, go read some blogs on it. Just please, ffs understand why people take this kind of thing seriously.
Beh I'm starting to blah, it just seems sad that you'd say this kind of thing and mean it.
[/rantrantrant]

I agree with this, if only as a social experiment to see how many people decided it was inappropriate. Duke is barely witty though :P

I totally agree with your sentiment, but this struck me as odd. We already have games with nontypical women in them, flaunting their micro armour and tiny waists and massive breasts. I feel we need more games with typical women in them, and move away from the whole boobs and hips thing.
Unless you meant nontypical in the way that link isn't a typical man, or mario isn't a typical man, or feel like the word typical is scorn or something. Maybe I'm interpreting it wrongly.

Arne brings up a really good point in the second section of this, about realism (http://androidarts.com/thoughts.htm) | It's kind of irrelevant to the current discussion though, but it came to mind when I was writing the above.

Excuse me. By that, I meant nontypical in terms of video games. So, "if you don't like the fact that dressing skimpily (is that a word?) is the norm for video game women, go make a game with some women who don't have any sexuality to them, or whatever you feel like." Basically, I just want this thread to be closed and everyone to ignore what gender anybody is. :P