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Greetings wonderful people. My story is I've wanted to make games for most of my life, I'm a trained software engineer and I've even cobbled together a functional prototype(using processing), but I've yet to actually ever finish a game to the standard I'd be happy to release it publicly. I've tried starting up a few times, but always to no avail. But I'm soon to be back home after a long period of travelling, and I'll be damned if I'm not going to do it this time.

Initially I planned on using XNA, so I could publish to xbox(no longer a priority), then I found out about unity and it seemed really awesome, but I've got no 3D design experience and so the learning curve was very steep. Now I just want to throw together some quick and dirty 2D games and I'm really overwhelmed at the choices of engines and such available. I do have a coding background, but a visual interface might make it easier for me to just get going. Should I go open source, or is it worth it to shell out for something a bit swankier? I guess ease of use takes a back seat to power and functionality.

So do you fine folks have any advice for the best tool for the job?

There are tons of possibilities. If you want to go with game making tool, Game Maker is one of the most popular and there are great games made in it. If you want use a 'real' programming language, you can use XNA you have mentioned before. That really depends on what language you prefer most (C# - XNA, C++ - SDL/SFML, Flash - FlashPunk/Flixel).

Well, I've only worked 6 months in the past 2 years, so I'd like to avoid paying for licences if there's a good free alternative. I've got most programing experience in java, but I don't especially like it for making games, it's a bit slow, so the specific language really doesn't matter that much, although C# probably has the best balance of power and easiness from what I know.

Go introduce yourself (http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=45.0).

To answer your question:
Whatever you're comfortable with. The tools do not make the game. If you are not comfortable with something:
1. Find something that looks cool (like Unity), and mess around with it.
2. Rinse and repeat until comfortable.
3. If comfort level is never reached, move on to next thing.

I also highly suggestion developing not in a bubble. Public devlog or release your most advanced prototype for feedback.

You need a reason to make games, and a game to make. Your statement of wanting to throw together some quick and dirty 3d games is disheartening. What I suggest instead, is to specify ONE specific thing you'd like to explore with video games, and then try to prototype that. Prototype that until it's fun. Assuming you can make a fun prototype, start building a more fleshed out game on top it. Keep it simple and small if it's going to be your first publicly released game.

Good luck to you.

P.S.: I'm personally using Game Maker for my current project. I love it for quick prototypes, but I miss some of the conveniences  of writing code in languages like Java and C#.

I don't think there's anything wrong with quick and dirty(it's 2D I'm aiming for by the by). I watched this interview with ed mcmillan (http://www.design3.com/component/k2/item/2387-interview-with-edmund-mcmillen-of-team-meat) and I'm taking his advice that the first few games you're going to make will suck. At this stage, small and fairly simple are what I'm aiming for until I build up experience and momentum.

Don't be disheartened by my attitude though. I have way, way too many ideas and truckloads of things I'd like to explore in gaming. I think it's the artform with the most potential for creativity and expression there is. To make games that have artistic depth, that people want to play and that I can eventually make a living off has been my prime ambition for a very long time. The reason I'm only concerned with the path of least resitance here is that I've tried to start before, but I've always hit a wall in my progress. I simply wish to know how to get a fully functional feature complete game out there with minimal possible problems. I'm a little reluctant to try a bunch of different things in case I get distracted again before I find the right one, so I'd like to get a few more expert opinions on good development environments before I jump in fully.

As for not developing in a bubble, that's why I made an account here. I don't really like posting in introduction threads though, they ruin my bonus damage for sneak attack.

I would advise a few things starting off.  Of course, this is stuff that I wish people had told me when I first tried making games, but it may nor may not be applicable to you.

1)  Your number one priority should be to finish games.  Shelve the big stuff and start small.  The reason you want to do this is because the act of creating an entire game is not easy or intuitive, and you will learn a ton along the way.  This will give you valuable insight that will make future big projects easier and much higher quality.  Trying to tackle a huge and complicated game is like a novice carpenter wanting to build cathedrals when they haven't built a birdhouse yet.

2)  Don't worry about publishing for a specific platform.  Don't be hung up about making a game for iOS or making a game deployable on the 360 or anything of the sort.  Just work with whatever you're comfortable working with.  If you can actually finish a game and start worrying about porting, it's a good problem to have.

3)  Don't be afraid to outgrow tools.  You mentioned you're a software engineer, so you might already be familiar with this.  Tools are just tools.  Engines, languages, they're things you should be able to pick up and throw away with ease.  The beautiful thing about programming is how most computer science practices, algorithms and concepts are completely language/tool agnostic.  You won't waste your time if you don't dive headfirst into the most robust engine imaginable, because even "simple" tools will teach you tons you of knowledge that will remain perfectly valid once you move onto more complex tools.

4)  Be patient, be persistent.  Game development is a marathon, not a sprint, and the most important trait you can have is tenacity.  You won't work miracles in a day, but that's ok, no one works miracles in a day.  I've probably worked harder in the past 2 years of my life than I did in the prior 5 years (lol University) combined, and it actually shows.  I've made incredible strides as a software engineer and game developer, and all it took was for me to seriously sit down and work over a period of time.  Concentrate on the journey, not the destination, and learn to find joy in the work you're doing now.

5)  If you feel overwhelmed on a specific topic, grab some books and start reading.  I'm a big fan of tutorials and the Internet and all that, but I'll be damned if a well-written software engineering books just isn't the most useful thing ever.  It took me a while to actually start reading books, but I like the very deep, concentrated, coherent knowledge that a good book provides.

6)  Get involved in the game development community.  If you want to meet people locally, look into the IGDA.  Go to conferences, big or small, if you can.  Participate in GameJams.  It's a really good way to keep yourself motivated seeing all the cool stuff other people make, and will be vital if you ever want to make a career out of this.  All I have to do to work myself into a coding frenzy is read the dev logs here on TIG and I'm instantly inspired.

As for specific tools, I have some recommendations.

1)  Flixel/Flash Punk are both excellent tools for doing flash/flex-based development.  They're great for making 2D games in, very straightforward, and fast to work with.

2)  Gamemaker is great, especially if you're starting out.  A lot of people poo-poo it for being too simple, but people have made really cool things with it and there's a wealth of knowledge surrounding it.  Plus, the knowledge you gain using it can be very applicable to more complex tools in the future.

3)  There is a free, 2D plugin for Unity called Orthello 2D.  Be warned, it's kind of weird, but it does work.  There's a pro version that adds some much needed optimization options, but if you're not doing iOS development you can get away without using it for quite some time (also pretty easy to upgrade).  Information about the plugin can be pretty spotty, and I rarely have luck finding much discussion about it, so be prepared to dig into its source if you want to figure out its finer details.  The big advantage here is that you get to use Unity, which you've expressed some interest in and does open up a lot of future options for you.  Orthello does leverage Unity's editor pretty well.  You can do a lot without having to dig too deep into code, like building levels by placing sprites in scenes.  In fact, there's a short tutorial some dude did that introduces you to building 2D games using nothing but free plugins for Unity.

http://www.rocket5studios.com/tutorials/make-a-2d-game-in-unity3d-using-only-free-tools-part-1/

4)  There's some other plugin for Unity called Sprite Manager 2, but I'm still looking into it myself.  I have heard some spattered reports that it's a little less weird than Orthello, but I dunno myself.  It's not free, but relatively inexpensive ($150, I think).

5)  XNA is good, but it's not an engine.  A very worthy tool if you want to roll up your sleeves, but you will certainly be starting from a lower point compared to other options.

Of everything I listed above, only Sprite Manager 2 and GameMaker aren't free (but they're pretty darn cheap).  You don't need to shell out big bucks to get good game dev tools nowadays, thankfully.  Hell, even Epic's giving away the UDK for free (with a publishing royalty, but that means you only pay if you actually sell the game).  It's a good time to get into game development.

Great reply, chur. I agree on pretty much all points. At the moment I'm leaning towards flash, mainly just for ease of distribution so anyone can play it more or less instantly. I also favour object oriented over the scripty doodads of GM. Dig it. Looks like I'll have to be on a windows box to make the most of the tools though(my win partition on my macbook is borked and my desktop is in a faraway land), so I guess I can fiddle about with orthello in the mean time. Thanks chum.

More feedback still more than welcome.

Bleargh. Unity requires a 1 gig update to use the desired plugins, not feasible on most cambodian internet connections alas. So I guess I'll give stencil a goo. Outputs flash, visual interface, mac compatible. Let's see how it goes...

Also, for a hobo like myself $150 is a crapload of money. I could almost live for a month off that.

There's your introduction. Do it, man. :)

This seems to be my most common type of post these days, but you should consider Flash's 3d capabilities.
nd3d is a good, simple 3d engine in Flash, and nd2d is a great, simple 2d engine in Flash.  If you don't need any scaling or rotation of 2d sprites, then Flixel or FlashPunk (which both use the same method of blitting) are going to be just fine (and on some computers [those with shitty GPU's] will outperform nd2d); However, if you might use any sort of shader effect or transformed sprite, then I can't recommend nd2d enough.

If you're planning on going the Flash route, I would strongly suggest that you take a look at HaXe (http://"http://haxe.org/") and NME (http://"http://www.haxenme.org/"). This is the solution I settled on for my personal development projects, and I'm loving it so far. For smaller-scale, cross-platform development it is one of the best solutions I've come across. It gives you access to the majority of Flash coding, an extremely fast SWF compiler, and the ability to export your projects natively to all sorts of platforms. The framework I'm developing runs great for Flash, HTML5, Windows, Linux, Mac OSX, and iOS.

Cheers for the advice guys. I've given stencyl a shot, and I like it so far. It's got the visual style of interface I wanted to try out that means I can hopefully churn stuff out out a decent rate once I get the hang. If I ever start a bigger project in flash I'll defintely take your advice into consideration.

baconman: I'll post in the intro thread when I finish a game. I've been a wannabe indie dev for too long, now I want to be an indie dev! Wait...

If you want to go left field and use HTML5, go Construct 2.
Cheap, with free version available. No programming required.

EDIT:
Also, DX Studio if you are into JavaScript. It's free.

Yeah, my advice would be HTML5, also. O.k. not advice, suggestion. :P

HTML5 is really growing, and there are more&more opportunities cropping up for it. I'm using GM-html5 to make cruddy little mobile web games(spam attack!):
http://www.desertdogdev.com/

And signing up with publishers. (one so far, anyway.)

I think for you, you get to start making simple games(who wants complex games on there mobile?!), which are commercially viable. The flash market is stagnante, in fact, just about every market is stagnate with games.

As for tools, well a huge recommend for GM-html5. Not only is it great, but it's very similar to the other GM versions, so you'll pick those up no probs. (when GM studio is released, exporting native apps for Androids, iPhones, etc)
Cost: $100

Construct 2, also, as suggested above. Cost: $80

Simply coding it straight is very viable for you, if your a software engineer. And there are libraries about the place.

 g'luck!

Cheers folks. I don't think HTML 5 is quite ready yet, too many fairly major problems without enough workarounds. I'm definitely keeping an eye on it though. I opted against gamemaker mostly because there's only a 10 hour trial before you have to buy it. With stencyl I can use it pretty much fully featured indefinitely, and also publish free games. I agree the flash market isn't really where it's at. With so many years, and so many fantastic examples already out there, of free flash games, I think the perceived value of flash games is really low unless you're doing something really different like the dream machine. When I plan on making something commercial, I'll almost certainly just code it. But as the subject says, I just want to make a game, in the easiest and hassle free-est way I can. For now stencyl's working out pretty well and I'm having fun trying to make it do things it clearly wasn't intended for(procedurally generated content is a bit of a headache).

WTF?  When did that happen?

You might want to try an older version (http://www.auntiepixelante.com/?p=1240). It lets you use the lite edition as long as you want.

Yeah, I think your mis-informed, or your on a Mac. I don't know so much about the mac version, except it isn't as good as the PC version, and I think they diiid have a time trial on the free version.. from the website, they don't have that anymore.

For windows, there are no restrictions on the free version of GM8.1, which is very functional. It just lacks some of the extra function of the pro version, but is just as capable at making games. (e.g. this guys (http://sandbox.yoyogames.com/users/Maeruron) games are all made with GM 8 lite)

But anyway, glad your liking Stencyl.  :handthumbsupR:

I am actually on mac, but funnily enough they seem to have just removed the trial period within the last few days. Probably too much competition on the market at present for it to be viable. I may try out GM 8 when I get back on a windows box(I miss them so much...) and I want to make a game in executable format. Flash is just pretty ideal for free games, and I find the object oriented nature really intuitive coming from a java background.

Personally? I really like SDL, with C, on a Visual C++ set-up. It's really quite nice, and it makes graphics simpler than DirectX or OpenGL, I think.