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Title: Mass Effect 2 Flirts With Permadeath Post by: The_Flying_Dove on September 06, 2009, 11:48:03 AM Quote If you hadn’t heard already, the first quarter of 2010 is the new holiday season. Seemingly not a week has gone by of late without a major title bailing out from the usual end of year bloodbath into the now increasingly warmer climes of January – March next year. Having already booked a slot in off season, Bioware rocked up at E3, still blissfully unaware their secluded winter party was soon to get a whole lot busier. Luckily for them, Infinity Ward didn’t have a monopoly on hotly anticipated sequels that impressed on the show floor. What the good doctors did show of Mass Effect 2 appeared to deliver. Interestingly, Bioware didn’t just want to talk about the raft of improvements you might expect from a big hitting sequel. That’s not to say they aren’t there. Players of the first Mass Effect, a game always a little rough around the edges, would certainly reel off a list of what was required and check them off as they go. Better combat, fine-tuned engine, more interesting environments, no elevators. Just a few of many, all present and correct. But unusually what Bioware really wanted to talk about in Mass Effect 2, was the end. One of the complete endings to Mass Effect 2 has Commander Sheperd dying, permanently. Casey Hudson – Project Director Sheperd’s fate had been a matter of debate amongst fans since the original teaser trailer, apparently showing the original’s protagonist in robotic form. E3 answered this but only in part. In Mass Effect 2, we now know you will reprise the role of Commander Sheperd. Set against a backdrop of humans disappearing across the galaxy, your Sheperd will be building a team for a dangerous “suicide” mission that comprises the game’s finale. Whether you ultimately prove the naysayers wrong and survive for Mass Effect 3, or lose a character you may have invested 60+ hours in over the duration of both games (importing your Mass Effect 1 saves was confirmed as a feature) will ultimately be down to decisions you make earlier in the game. The emphasis on “earlier” is key. Permadeath is a controversial topic and usually restricted to the most hardcore of MMORPG’s and Roguealikes. Even then it is by no means the norm. The primary idea is to dramatically increase the potential consequences of failure in order to lend more significance to decisions the player makes in the game. In a traditional single player RPG this has been near impossible to achieve. Even in the original Mass Effect, if you weren’t happy with how the scene on Virmire played out, you could reload another save and go back. In Mass Effect 2, however, Bioware is angling at getting a little closer to achieving some real permanence in player decisions. If your fate has been set by a string of choices over the last 10 hours of gameplay, reloading and doing even part of that again is suddenly not so easy. me4 Sheperd's demise? This strategy isn’t without risk of course. Traditional complaints against permadeath center around unduly upsetting the player who may have poured hours into building up their character, experience, loot, and in this triology’s case, a rich backstory. Bioware, for their part, say that players will have a good chance of knowing whether they are likely to survive the suicide mission, even to the point of delaying it to make further preparations (and with it, the implication that a save at this point might be an idea.) So for Shepard we have a permadeath that doesn’t have to be permanent but is at least flirting with it. Knowing that Shepard can die will at least likely make players think twice about being reckless, and there will always be some who play the game and accept that as the ending, thus having a much different experience to everybody else. Not a shabby achievement by any means but if that’s the case for Shepard, does it necessarily apply to other characters in the game? Not if Bioware’s intentions are to be believed. Squad-mates killed off in the first game will stay dead, if you import your save. Is the Mass Effect save you want to use the one where you have all the cool Spectre gear but chose to kill off somebody just to see what happened? Then you have a choice to make. Replaying the original game, if you have it, to change these things is even more of a barrier than reloading a save. Indeed, the sheer amount of data present in the save games about literally every decision allows Bioware to do pretty interesting things. Hudson picks out the example of Conrad Verner;- Conrad Verner was a fan of Commander Shepard’s that you met in the first game, and it’s like you meet this guy in an alley and you can be nice to him or you can be a jerk to him, and at the time you might have been thinking of it as just a trite role-playing convention, good-guy bad-guy, and that’s that. Jump forward two years. Now you’re playing Mass Effect 2, and oh my god, who’s this, it’s Conrad Verner! And based on what you’ve done, you realize that while the moment in the first game maybe seemed throwaway, now Conrad’s back and involved in another plot in a game you’re playing two years later…and what you did two years ago is meaningfully affecting what’s happening. That’s a small example. Allow us to speculate for a moment about how this might play out. Perhaps you were rude to the guy and now he won’t help you save a squad mate in the second game? Better still, perhaps you were nice to him and during an encounter in Mass Effect 2, Verner sacrifices himself to save you. A very plausible scenario where there could be literally nothing you could do to save him. In either case, there won’t be a short section of gameplay to replay to change things. With another part of the trilogy still to come then, you might be thinking twice about who you upset in Mass Effect 2. Bioware it would seem don’t want you to have it so easy. Another facet of the E3 demo was the re-introduction of the “interrupt” system. A feature that was in the original game until the very last minute, it has now been re-worked back into the game. Hudson expands a little more about what was shown at E3;- We pepper the game with moments like these. They’re in every level, so it’s a system that’s fully supported. It’s not even really an interrupt system, it’s more of a “take action” system. In Mass Effect it was more about dialogue and could you interrupt somebody verbally. Now it’s more like you’re talking to somebody because you think they’re in danger and you see they’re about to get shot by a sniper and for a moment you have the ability to push them out of the way. That’d be an example of a paragon interrupt. Or like we showed at E3, there’s a guy that’s hassling you, and you have a moment where you can push him over a ledge. That moment can pass, and if it does, you have to deal with the situation in other ways. Whilst Hudson was keen to reassure players that the interrupt moments would not require twitch reflexes, it does highlight an interesting tension. Bioware wants to give your actions more significance and permanence whilst at the same time, putting you under more pressure to take them. Living with reckless decisions is part and parcel of life and at the very least, Bioware are attempting to make that less easy to avoid than it used to be. As excited as I might be about a world without elevators, uncharted worlds actually worth visiting and liaisons with new alien species; making Shepard’s story uniquely your own is the most interesting thing. link to original source: http://couchcampus.com/blog/2009/08/mass-effect-2-flirts-with-permadeath/ I really like this idea because it may help make players more cautious about what decisions they make. In addition, it will bring a much more emotional experience, especially if a character that you cared so much about suddenly dies. Hmmmm....Perhaps more genres should experiment with permadeath. Title: Re: Mass Effect 2 Flirts With Permadeath Post by: Rynen10K on September 06, 2009, 11:56:26 AM I think most of us have contemplated this idea at one point or another. I also used to think up level designs where the entire level was spikes on fire when I was a kid. >:D
I haven't played Mass Effect, but I would imagine that this would just bring unnecessary frustration more than anything. Also, people can always make a duplicate saves in case they fuck themselves over. Title: Re: Mass Effect 2 Flirts With Permadeath Post by: Tanner on September 06, 2009, 12:40:12 PM Hey, falsion. RTFA.
It's talking about permadeath for the game's ending. As in, Shepard won't be alive in the next game. Not during the game, but AT THE END. Title: Re: Mass Effect 2 Flirts With Permadeath Post by: Radnom on September 06, 2009, 01:38:30 PM I think permadeath through the actual game wouldn't be too bad. I don't think I died very often if at all, and it would definitely add suspense and weight behind all my actions if they were all permanent. When I played through ME1 I often just loaded the level again if I didn't like how something turned out.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 2 Flirts With Permadeath Post by: Radix on September 06, 2009, 05:47:35 PM Yeah, the only time I died in Mass Effect was when the game fucked up and wouldn't let me reload my weapons until I entered a new area. Actually, I liked it when that happened, since I'd often need to conserve ammo and use all my guns to scrape by for a change.
Anyway, it sounds interesting, but I wish they'd had a "DON'T DELETE YOUR SAVE" screen at the end because I usually delete my saves when I uninstall mediocre games. Title: Re: Mass Effect 2 Flirts With Permadeath Post by: Aik on September 06, 2009, 06:13:10 PM Yeah - not really getting the feeling that this is a significant gameplay feature. Basically ... they're killing him off for the sequels?
Blah - I don't really care. Bioware's games haven't been interesting for a long time. Title: Re: Mass Effect 2 Flirts With Permadeath Post by: MisterX on September 06, 2009, 06:23:30 PM The title of the article is a bit misleading if you don't read it through. It's not directly about Shepard's death or the idea to have actual permadeath in the game. It's about less direct control over the outcomes of certain situations, because they will be determined by several decision you make along the way. Thus, taking away the ability to simply reload a savegame from 1 minute before to change the result, and making it more meaningful this way.
And one such result will be that Shepard may die at the end of the game, which will not be determined by one final decision, but supposedly rather many that you make throughout the game, so that you actually care about the "big picture" these decisions may influence. Title: Re: Mass Effect 2 Flirts With Permadeath Post by: Rynen10K on September 06, 2009, 06:31:11 PM Title: Re: Mass Effect 2 Flirts With Permadeath Post by: William Broom on September 07, 2009, 05:15:31 AM Hey, falsion ???Title: Re: Mass Effect 2 Flirts With Permadeath Post by: Chaoseed on September 07, 2009, 01:22:00 PM I don't think this will have the intended effect. Some people will try to play through again anyway, and they'll be annoyed that they'll have to play through so much of the game to change one little decision. Other people will not want to spend so much time on it, and so they'll view it as a pointless source of frustration (not an artistic choice).
Title: Re: Mass Effect 2 Flirts With Permadeath Post by: Tanner on September 07, 2009, 04:39:09 PM He deleted his post.
Coward. Title: Re: Mass Effect 2 Flirts With Permadeath Post by: Destral on September 08, 2009, 12:37:42 PM What I find interesting about this is the part where they talk about taking data from your save file from the first game and using it to determine what you get to experience in the second. I wrote a piece about exactly that type of thing a long time ago, and how in an age where you can store your save files forever on your console, there's more incentive to use that data as a tie in to sequels, etc.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 2 Flirts With Permadeath Post by: falsion on September 08, 2009, 06:58:04 PM He deleted his post. Coward. I deleted it way before you posted. I noticed my mistake before you did, seconds after I made my post. There was no need for you to be rude about it. You could have edited your post. Anyway, yeah. Apart from the fact that you can lose a character you spend a lot of time trying to build, I guess it could work. Although how the heck would that work for the sequel? I'm pretty sure they said it's going to be a trilogy. It'd be better to make that one of the possibilities that you can do, but it shouldn't be completely permanent. You should be able to go back on your save and try the other endings, and have the option to accept that ending is the one you want to go with rather than killing off your character completely and forever. But they do mention a save point, so maybe permadeath isn't the best way to describe it. Title: Re: Mass Effect 2 Flirts With Permadeath Post by: Tanner on September 08, 2009, 07:34:16 PM The coward bit was more in jest. I did remember seeing the post, but whatevs. Just the internet.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 2 Flirts With Permadeath Post by: Chaoseed on September 09, 2009, 11:10:39 AM What I find interesting about this is the part where they talk about taking data from your save file from the first game and using it to determine what you get to experience in the second. I wrote a piece about exactly that type of thing a long time ago, and how in an age where you can store your save files forever on your console, there's more incentive to use that data as a tie in to sequels, etc. Yeah, it boggles my mind that there haven't been more games that use this feature. There are a couple, though, like Suikoden 2 and 3...Hmmm. If you make an XBox Live game, then you make a sequel also on XBox Live, can the second game read data from the first one's save files? Maybe Microsoft wouldn't allow that sort of thing. I have no way of knowing for sure, though. Title: Re: Mass Effect 2 Flirts With Permadeath Post by: Montoli on September 09, 2009, 11:27:39 AM Do you know, I used to think "what I want is a game where there are LOTS of characters, but they can actually die. So there are always cool replacements if one does die, but if I mess up, that character is gone! So I'd be more ok with characters dying, but would want to keep them alive, lending more weight and meaning to my actions! That would be rad!"
Then I found Fire Emblem, which basically does that. ...And spent the entire game compulsively reloading every time a battle went wrong, trying to keep everyone up and alive, and feeling quite silly about the whole thing, even as I was unable to stop myself from doing it. :P I realized at that the difference between theory and practice, and that what I think I want is not always what I actually want. Title: Re: Mass Effect 2 Flirts With Permadeath Post by: John Nesky on September 09, 2009, 11:46:04 AM The problem, then, is not that Fire Emblem characters die, but rather that you are allowed to go back to a previous state when they do. Give players the opportunity to cheat and they will take it.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 2 Flirts With Permadeath Post by: MisterX on September 09, 2009, 01:09:33 PM The problem with Fire Emblem for me wasn't the characters' death, but the knowledge that each death makes the already hard game only harder. At some point you will have more characters than you can take into the battle, but because they are so very different and especially because they participate in the dialogues you really don't want to lose any at all. That's why I think the concept in Fire Emblem is simply bad. It has absolutely no use but frustrating the player.
In Mass Effect this was a lot more comfortable, because you were limited to only two out of six teammates per mission, anyway, and even if you only had two you wouldn't get into very big trouble. Title: Re: Mass Effect 2 Flirts With Permadeath Post by: Ed on September 09, 2009, 01:21:58 PM Then I found Fire Emblem, which basically does that. ...And spent the entire game compulsively reloading every time a battle went wrong, trying to keep everyone up and alive, and feeling quite silly about the whole thing, even as I was unable to stop myself from doing it. :P I realized at that the difference between theory and practice, and that what I think I want is not always what I actually want. I had this exact experience. Also agree that it was far too difficult/puzzley for this to work well. The only games AFIAK that get it right are XCOM/UFO and (in a lighter way) Cannon Fodder. You have an infinite supply of characters and you can get attached to them or not depending on your mood/playstyle/personality. Are there any other games like this? Mass Effect 2... I might buy it when it gets cheap. At least it's not KOTOR. :whome: I'm in the "it's a long time since Bioware games were interesting" camp. Title: Re: Mass Effect 2 Flirts With Permadeath Post by: falsion on September 09, 2009, 02:10:52 PM Cannon Fodder. You have an infinite supply of characters and you can get attached to them or not depending on your mood/playstyle/personality. Are there any other games like this? Not really a good example, IMHO. The soldiers in Cannon Fodder, were well.. Cannon Fodder (hence the name). They didn't have anything in the way of personality or anything. Losing one is no different than losing the other 100 or so it throws at you. Title: Re: Mass Effect 2 Flirts With Permadeath Post by: Gnarf on September 09, 2009, 04:37:36 PM What I find interesting about this is the part where they talk about taking data from your save file from the first game and using it to determine what you get to experience in the second. I wrote a piece about exactly that type of thing a long time ago, and how in an age where you can store your save files forever on your console, there's more incentive to use that data as a tie in to sequels, etc. Yeah, it boggles my mind that there haven't been more games that use this feature. There are a couple, though, like Suikoden 2 and 3...I think you at least got different beginnings depending on what ending you got in the previous one in Wizardry 6-8. Importing characters from previous games used to be fairly common in dungeoncrawlers. In Bard's Tale you could even import characters from Wizardry or Ultima III. Oh my. Title: Re: Mass Effect 2 Flirts With Permadeath Post by: Destral on September 10, 2009, 11:00:04 AM What I find interesting about this is the part where they talk about taking data from your save file from the first game and using it to determine what you get to experience in the second. I wrote a piece about exactly that type of thing a long time ago, and how in an age where you can store your save files forever on your console, there's more incentive to use that data as a tie in to sequels, etc. Yeah, it boggles my mind that there haven't been more games that use this feature. There are a couple, though, like Suikoden 2 and 3...I think you at least got different beginnings depending on what ending you got in the previous one in Wizardry 6-8. Importing characters from previous games used to be fairly common in dungeoncrawlers. In Bard's Tale you could even import characters from Wizardry or Ultima III. Oh my. Yes, in the 'Gold Box' SSI AD&D game series (Pools of Radiance, Curse of the Azure Bonds, etc), you could import your characters from the previous game, essentially playing through a 'campaign' with the same characters over a series of 'modules' (individual games). There have been a number of games that have done this in the past, despite technical difficulties and the like. What I'm wondering is, considering that it's a lot easier with the current hardware, why isn't it done more nowadays? It would make a lot of sense from a lot of different perspectives. Title: Re: Mass Effect 2 Flirts With Permadeath Post by: nihilocrat on September 10, 2009, 05:34:38 PM Do you know, I used to think "what I want is a game where there are LOTS of characters, but they can actually die. So there are always cool replacements if one does die, but if I mess up, that character is gone! So I'd be more ok with characters dying, but would want to keep them alive, lending more weight and meaning to my actions! That would be rad!" X-COM feels like this, but even when playing that, if a veteran soldier dies you will see me navigating to the 'Load Game' button. The time spent training up the soldiers and their quality compared to green recruits makes losing a veteran kind of a big deal. There have been a number of games that have done this in the past, despite technical difficulties and the like. What I'm wondering is, considering that it's a lot easier with the current hardware, why isn't it done more nowadays? It would make a lot of sense from a lot of different perspectives. Quest for Glory has done this, adding stuff like the Paladin class, which can only be played by imported characters, to make it even more enticing to import. It's also a clever marketing strategy, now someone has even more reason to buy the prior games if they haven't. I'm going to bet this and the AD&D games pulled it off because the creators wrote the games with this in mind. Title: Re: Mass Effect 2 Flirts With Permadeath Post by: Ed on September 12, 2009, 12:31:50 PM X-COM feels like this, but even when playing that, if a veteran soldier dies you will see me navigating to the 'Load Game' button. The time spent training up the soldiers and their quality compared to green recruits makes losing a veteran kind of a big deal. Yeah, I find myself doing this about 75% of the time.... Sometimes though the death of some veterans is worth it for the capture of a big UFO or similar. It felt more natural and ambiguous (sort of) than Fire Emblem. @falsion - That's why I said it was "lighter". Even so, I did occasionally feel attached to/responsible for the characters. The old Baldur's Gate games had occasional permadeath, but again I always felt that the characters were too indispensible, so just reloaded. I don't think the surviving characters had much to say about their companion's death either, which would have been nice. Khalid/Jaheira and Minsc/Dynaheir had a special voice sample... maybe they also decided it was pointless to continue with the party without their specific best friend...? Can't remember. Title: Re: Mass Effect 2 Flirts With Permadeath Post by: Destral on September 17, 2009, 04:34:17 PM There's no reason why they should object, as long as you're not purloining the user's credit card number or something. In fact, you would think that the prospect of selling additional copies of older titles by providing extra content based on their old save data would be something that would be beneficial to everyone (except people who didn't buy/play the first one who want to play the second one - but you could always sweeten the deal by reducing the price of the first game).
Title: Re: Mass Effect 2 Flirts With Permadeath Post by: C.A. Silbereisen on September 18, 2009, 04:40:19 PM Permadeath only works in roguelikes and similar games. In everything else it's simply a source of unnecessary frustration.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 2 Flirts With Permadeath Post by: Tanner on September 18, 2009, 07:43:07 PM But why just those?
Title: Re: Mass Effect 2 Flirts With Permadeath Post by: team_q on September 18, 2009, 09:24:36 PM The only people who play rogue-likes are those who can overcome frustration when it comes to games.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 2 Flirts With Permadeath Post by: Gnarf on September 19, 2009, 04:53:14 AM Roguelikes and Monopoly. Hard fucking core.
Title: Re: Mass Effect 2 Flirts With Permadeath Post by: Titch on September 19, 2009, 05:05:02 AM I quite liked Obscures perma death mechanic. There where six characters that where all mostly the same (some of them had abilities that helped a little but wheren't path essential) and you took two of them out at any one time. When a character died they stayed dead and you just took control of two more of the remaining six. There was no in game warning about this, so I had traipsed back to the spot my two characters had died in and was like oh crud, they're dead for good.
Then I reloaded my game, thus breaking the whole thing. The problem I have with the approach of small choices feeding into one big outcome later as a way to stop the save/reload behavoir is it can mask the very clear line of cause and effect of what you choose and how it created the outcome. If you made that choice five hours of play ago you are less likely to even remember. Title: Re: Mass Effect 2 Flirts With Permadeath Post by: Corpus on September 19, 2009, 05:16:58 AM Title: Re: Mass Effect 2 Flirts With Permadeath Post by: C.A. Silbereisen on September 19, 2009, 05:21:03 AM But why just those? Procedural generation is the key. Trying again in a roguelike (or something like Spelunky, or some shmups) doesn't force you to go through the exact same motions over and over again but presents you with a more or less "fresh" challenge. Of course, frustration sets in at some point, but, at least for me, it takes a lot longer than in something like Fire Emblem. |