Games are games.

Duh.

In other words, games aren't "just" art. They're games.
That's my opinion on the matter, at least :D

I don't see how so many people can be discussing a game that, as far as I know, only eight of the world's richest men have ever played.

Rumors say that every time we go to sleep and dream, we're actually seeing a cutscene from Airship 2600.

[is]

Airship 2600 is not rendered at all. It just is.

Well, Greenhouse does look pretty promising, although I neither know how "indie" they actually are nor if they will ever big as big as Steam (in terms of available games that is).

It is said that Airship 2600's main conscience is housed deep under Sweden.

The swedish game developers are affected by the residual energies of Airship 2600's gaming perfection.

Actually, I think they stole it and are siphoning it's energies for their own purpose. Whatever games we get from Sweden are actually small parts of Airship 2600, carefully disassembled and remade in a format that our puny brains can grasp.

Either that, or Airship 2600 was so awesome that it exploded and became what is now known as "Sweden".

I underwent the project "Leave No Game Unsubmitted" a while earlier, but totally failed at that :D

I think it was mainly interrupted through an internet-less vacation and then I just forgot about it.

If you don't accept copyright law, that's fine.  But you have to understand that virtually everyone else in the world does accept it.  And you have to not be surprised when the rest of the world doesn't condone your actions.  Especially those of us whose work you're illegally taking. 

And you have to not be surprised when you're fined or imprisoned for your illegal actions.

Ehm, I'm certainly not arguing with the fact that it is basically forbidden in every country on this planet, but I think your giving the this specific law a bit more weight than it actually has.
It's not like they're dispatching SWAT teams to our houses to brutally bring us down. The worst I (for example) would get, would be the loss of pretty much all my technical equipment and a punch in the face from my father (since he would pay the fine, although I had to repay him, naturally). It would suck, but it wouldn't be life-destroying for me or anything (neither for my father, and he would pay the fine even if I told him not to, he's....financially secured).

Also, I think you're being a bit too optimistic about humanity in general. Virtually everyone in this world accepts copyright laws? Seriously? You don't actually believe that right? I'm not saying every second person on earth pirates stuff, but I'm pretty confident that virtually everybody has at one point in his life broken the copyright law in some way, and certainly didn't go to confession about it. I'm not saying the whole world is rotten, but it's not like everybody is a saint either.

Also, (and this is NOT addressing you personally, mewse, please don't misunderstand it), I'm also pretty sure that about 50% of the "pro-copyright" activists are scolding software pirates in one breath and then browse Frostwire for the newest songs of their favorite band in the other.
To be fair, I guess pretty much 50% of the pirates who say they got a reason or moral code to go with their pirating don't (I know there are much more than 50%, but those don't pretend to have on in the first place).
Uh, and if one of you guys (pirate or not) feels offended by the above paragraph, then I'm probably right. But I did not adress any of you guys directly here. I just made this guess based on my experience with people in general. The loudest activists against something are often the worst offenders, too.

Also, I like starting my paragraphs with "Also,..."

Ah, damn, this is probably going to drag me into a long and tiring argument again, that at the end will lead us right back to where we started.

I saw this image just now and thought of this thread, haha:

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

xkcd is truth.

(Following in response to mewse)

That's why said that this explanation only really works for me and that I didn't expect anybody else to understand it. It's just the way I grew up (even if that sounds like the easy way out).

And just to engage your example (DISCLAIMER: Nothing of the following actually happened):

In my case I would have indeed contacted the according company and tried to talk with them. However, in my case, that would've lead to nothing more than brushing me off in a manner of "If you don't like it, don't buy it, your own fault."

And that would've lead me again where I am now.

My point being, yes, what you said does sound entirely logical to you. But my explanation sounds just as logical to ME.
In the end we ARE two different persons.

Or, to put it in other words. I grew up not giving a damn about laws, you grew up valuing laws above everything else. (Warning: strongly simplified version, do not quote)

Also, please, people, stop trying to convince me that piracy is wrong. I know it is. I agree with you. But that still won't stop me from doing it until MY PERSONAL REASONS for doing are not fulfilled anymore.

(in response to rinkuhero)
That's why I asked, I really have no clue about stuff like that.

"unpoliceable crime"

The thousands of people in jail right now for piracy would probably disagree with that. Sure, most of them are people who pirate and then re-sell, but a lot of them are just normal file sharers too. It might go 99% unpunished, but so do most crimes -- I once read that only about 3% of murders are solved. Meaning you have a 97% chance of getting away with murder, seriously. But muder isn't unpoliceable.

Aren't it only the people who actually make money of pirating that get into jail? I'm not sure about the laws where you live, but from what I recall if you're the one downloading the stuff, the worst you have to deal with will be a really high fine you'll have to pay.

This is a real question. I really don't know.

As an added note, I think about 80% of the "Woman has to pay 3000€ because child downloaded music" stories are made up, simply to scare people. But I'm probably wrong there.

Wha, that actually reminded me of something.
http://torrentfreak.com/sharing-2999-songs-199-movies-becomes-safe-in-germany-080814/

To sum the above article up: German prosecutors are lazy.

[was]

Yes, that's true.  Of course, your "nobody who does it gives a damn" criteria applies to virtually every crime in history, so as a criteria for drawing comparisons between things, it's kind of useless.   

Or if you insist, then I can draw a comparison between stealing a car and stealing software, because nobody who does either of those things gives a damn.  You were satisfied with that to equate piracy with orange-eating, and so now with this logical deduction you must logically equate piracy with car-stealing, for I have logically proven it within the framework of your own logic.  And so I charge you yield, sirrah!   

Also, logic!

I am defeated by logic. And I'm glad I'm not God, or I might have a problem now.

Oh, wait, so it was explaining why it's okay for you to pirate stuff after all?  Okay then, I'll withdraw my withdrawl of that point.  But just this once, and only because I like you. 

I kind of quickly tacked in on, because I had to say SOMETHING.
I'll draw the analogy gain (moah analogies) I did back there. Basically, if today you help an old lady over the street, she is probably going to sue you over molesting her. So, while I would be a nice enough guy to help her over the street, it would only get me in trouble or lead to me getting exploited. That's what I meant with the "too nice" thing. Yes, I want to be nice, but it will only result in me being the whipping boy for everything.
So I drew the analogy to piracy, too. I mean, yes, I can be a nice guy and buy my games. But it will only lead to me being the loser in this bargain again. I think the game Bad Company is a good example for that. Hey, you just bought the game, but to get all the content that you ALREADY BOUGHT you will have to pay us again. Moah money!

So, in essence, this means I'm pirating because I get ripped off otherwise. Also, please don't assume that I apply this blindly to every game ever. In my life, I have probably bought as much games as I pirated. I happily buy every game that gives me what I pay it for. It also often happened that I misjudged a game that I pirated, but (believe it or not) I actually go and buy this games afterwards.

Also, please note that his only applies to ME and just ME. I see this in no way as a general argument to justify piracy for everyone. This view highly depends on how I grew up and the environment I grew up in. Without getting into emo territories, and without wanting to sound whiney, but I haven't had an easy life and I've haven't grown up in a rather poor family too, so essentially every time I got ripped off with anything was really a hard blow into the nuts.

Actually, I don't even see it as an argument to justify my own piracy. Sure, I don't cry myself into sleep every night over it, but as soon as I've gained somewhat of a financial stability (speak, as soon as I'm done being a job trainee, can move out and can earn real money) I want to stop with piracy. I don't really like it myself, but from the way I grew up I see myself being forced into doing it.

Also, PLEASE, don't try to rip something out of context here again. If something sounds silly or unreasonable here, then that's because I suck with explaining. Instead of ripping me apart, just ask :p

I also don't expect anyone to accept my reasons of piracy now because of some sort of sob-story. I just wanted to get clear with mewse :p

Aw, come on.  I spent the time to add a link to every one of the silly claims I referenced, so that we could all go back and giggle at them again.  At least show the same courtesy to us.   

Hey, I'm the evil guy here, remember? So I'll make you find the references yourself *diabolic laugh*

But you have to admit that "It's like stealing a car" is at least vaguely within the realms of plausibility.  I mean, it's not even in the same galaxy as silliness like "Piracy is okay because CDs are made of oil".  Or "I'm too nice for this world and so I'm going to steal stuff whenever I think I can get away with it."   :D

Weeell, technically "Pirating games is like stealing a car" is even less plausible than the oranges thing. Eating oranges in your bath tub is forbidden by law. Nobody who does gives a damn. Pirating is forbidden by law. Nobody who does gives a damn either.

You're right about the oil thing, though. Although you gotta hand it to the person who made the argument that it is probably his well right to have that as his reason to pirate games, just as it is your well right to put the "evil" stamp on everybody who has illegally downloaded anything.

The "I'm too nice for this world" "argument" was actually made by me (as you're well aware) and blatantly pulled out of context. Seeing that I already explained it back then already (which you blatantly ignored) I'm not going to do it again.
In essence, that argument wasn't even referring to piracy and belonged to the sub-discussion about morals in todays world, that you apparently missed.
As you could've well observed in my explanation however, it is applicable to piracy too (although probably just in my personal case).

AND NO LINKS AT ALL BECAUSE IM A LAZY PIRATE BITCH *EVIL LAUGHTER AND LIGHTNING IN THE BACKGROUND* ALSO CAPS TO EMPHASIZE IM SHOUTING

Actually, though, I'm at work (illegally surfing in this forum) so I'm not all to keen to browse through a dozen of pages to find the one post I was referring to.

If you really, really want though, I'll add links when I get back home. Just for you

And Derek, I want to see this reasoning in your thread summary post as well.  Piracy is okay because it's like eating an orange in your bathtub.


I mean, honestly.

Also don't forget to include the "Pirating games is like stealing a car" analogy.

I was thinking about doing a quick and dirty flash game after the compo and this comes in really handy. Thanks a big bunch.

Who?

:T

The (semi-)antagonist of the Chzo games. Primarily featured in Trilby's Notes and 5 Days a Skeptic.

You know, this guy

I think someone like Derek, who has a somewhat objective view on these things, should write an ACTUAL summary of this thread and then just close it.

I'd do it myself, but as a starter of the pro-pirate debate I'm hardly to be considered objective.

Actually, I think said summary should be posted on the Blog, as some sort of Addendum to the answers this Harris guy got.

Guys, there is no way we make can make an indie brawler without a little someone I like to call... Mr. Monocle.  Could also be Monocle bot.  Anyway, the point stands we need a personified Tigsauce fighter.  Also, Trilby needs a face mask IMO, just because its in with the whole, cat burglar, thing.

Is Xoda in there? 

A panda with a monocle and a tophat.

The Tall Man needs to be in as an unlockable character/boss.

I found that lately (like, during the last year or so) the distribution of games in episodic format has become quite popular, both in indie and, uh, not-indie game development.

What I'm wondering though is, is there really any point to it, other than making people want more? Is there actually some kind of thought behind it that I don't get (like, I dunno, less development costs, or something like that) or is it really just a way to get sales up a bit?

Of course, there are those and those cases again. Sam & Max for example pulled off the episodic thing quite well. The episodes felt like actual episodes, and the end of one actually concluded a sub-story AND progressed a bigger story. During no episode I actually felt like something was missing.

But in other cases it's just disappointing and doesn't really fit. The Penny Arcade game, for example, to stay within indie boundaries. Sure, it too kind of concluded a story in itself, but still it kind of felt like the developers just said "You know what? I want this to be out now, just let us make the rest later."

Lost Winds (although I'm not sure if it is indie or not) was similar there. It kind of just ended in between. Actually, with Lost Winds I thought "Did I just play a demo?"

So, is there really any advantage (other than sales) developers gain from episodic releases? Or is it a publisher thing? That they're FORCED to release episodic because the publisher puts on pressure?

I'm really kind of curious there, as it seems to be an increasingly popular trend (Strongbad, anyone?), despite not always quite working out.

Oh, and please, PLEASE don't misinterpret this post as complaining or anything. I really just want to get a bit deeper insight into the motivation behind releasing episodic games.

I always want to come, but I always kind of forget it. I really have no idea why. I just always see this thread the day after and think "F*"