Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

 
Advanced search

1026032 Posts in 41122 Topics- by 32721 Members - Latest Member: bloodmoney0006

July 23, 2014, 04:03:47 PM
  Show Posts
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 17
1  Feedback / DevLogs / Re: Return of the Obra Dinn on: July 22, 2014, 10:16:22 PM
Do you have any concerns that a lack of proper video quality on videos of the game will make it appear differently/uglier to people experiencing it for the first time on Youtube?

Yup! I'm experimenting now with ways to fix or at least improve the compression results. The main culprits are the contrast and the dithering - two cornerstones of the look I'm going for.  Grin
2  Feedback / DevLogs / Re: Return of the Obra Dinn on: July 22, 2014, 09:47:24 PM
Will you be using any other colors for effect in game (emotional effect - not like tinted yellow because of a yellow light)

The whole game will be just 2 colors, but I may have selectable palettes or something for those 2.

Now, this might make me a bit unpopular in this thread... but to be honest, I'm not quite sure yet what to think of the 1-bit style. [...]

I think part of the problem is the small relative size of the gifs. Stretched to fullscreen you definitely wouldn't say the resolution is too high Smiley. Try watching the in-game hand footage (switch to 720p) at fullscreen to get a better idea.

In motion the 3D all looks perfectly correct, which is probably also breaking the "old" look, where you'd expect more projection or accuracy errors. So as you say, it's a filter applied to standard 3D rendering and that's not something I'm fighting against. My goal is to take something you'd see on a Mac Plus (not DOS) and move all the engine stuff to modern realtime tech while leaving the display tech at 1-bit.

Personally I think the 1-bit restriction, low resolution, inverse-lit wireframes, and exactly-one-pixel-wide lines give the game a very different feel to other b&w and wireframe-style games that have been released (Antichamber, Unfinished Swan, Within). But that's an opinion from the most biased person in this thread.

(Sup Andrew! Say hi to your bro for me.)
3  Feedback / DevLogs / Re: Return of the Obra Dinn on: July 20, 2014, 11:40:45 AM
Don't know if it helps, but did you take a look at how they handled it in Trespasser? It's the only game I know with a similar arm controlling feature and although it was clunky at times, I really liked it back then. Smiley

I played a lot of Trespasser back in the day and I think their arm is why you don't see hand+environment interaction much in games these days. Smiley
It was a fun game but probably for the wrong reasons.

The arm is fully automatic in Obra Dinn, which means I have more control and can hopefully make it look less like a long thin noodle swinging around the screen.

I'll go back and watch some TP vids though to see if there's anything useful there. Thanks for the suggestion.
4  Feedback / DevLogs / Re: Return of the Obra Dinn on: July 20, 2014, 11:13:47 AM
The way your arm stretches out to reach at items feels a little bit too straight, as if you're stretching your arm as far as the elbow can go.

Yeah you're right. It's still bent 10 degrees at its straightest but the elbow is aimed directly away from the camera so you can't really tell. This is one of the issues with trying to get the arm to look ok with the FOV but also be able to interact with the environment. Normally your view weapons/hands can be in their own little world and don't need to reach out and touch stuff so you can mess around with forced perspective more.

In this case I think the tube-like modeling on the arm wasn't doing any favors. I don't think I can ever completely get rid of the "long pole" effect of the FOV but I added some detail and it helps a little.


5  Feedback / DevLogs / Re: Return of the Obra Dinn on: July 19, 2014, 09:04:23 PM
Hand Tweaks

Made a few updates already to improve things a bit:

  • Added an intermediate "curl" animation between touching and gripping. This makes the fingers curl around the handle a little more naturally.
  • Slow the player's movement down after they touch the handle. I don't know why I didn't think of this earlier. It always bothered me that you can zip around while the IK is gripping the door. Much better now.
  • When gripping the handle, set a max speed for the blends so the hand doesn't snap closed. When releasing the handle, it's still only distance-based to keep the fingers
    from passing through the handle.
  • Keep the elbow bent a few more degrees at its straightest configuration.

Result

(with a touch of slo-mo)
6  Feedback / DevLogs / Re: Return of the Obra Dinn on: July 19, 2014, 12:51:07 PM
Hah. I need to pay more attention to how many messages are on a page. That's not the first time I've posted at the bottom of a previous page.

It seems like the hand doesn't have a "grabbing animation", will that be fixed because it currently looks like the hand is sticking to the doorknob, instead of looking like the smooth arms movements?

The hand does blend from touching to gripping, but it's based on the palm's distance from the handle. I guess you'd call that blend a grab - the fingers close around the handle. When walking up to the door quickly, you won't see much of the touch frames and the gripping happens in just a few frames. I set it up like this to match how I grab a real door handle. I don't slowly grasp it; my fingers slip around it as soon as possible. In-game, it feels pretty good in practice.

But maybe the way the arm points at the doorknob could be a bit more relaxed, it felt a bit stiff. But overall it looks really nice, and it would definitely work as is.

There are no indications that an item is usable, the only clue that you can interact with something is seeing the hand point at it. Since it's actually functional, I figure it's better to make the pointing part clearer and give up some of the naturalness. You're right that it's a bit stiff though so I may tweak that balance a little bit later.
7  Feedback / DevLogs / Re: Return of the Obra Dinn on: July 19, 2014, 11:24:05 AM
Player's Hand


The player hand stuff is finally done for now. That wraps up the groundwork for all the major technical features in the game. From here it's hopefully just about filling in the content and dealing with the occasional technical hiccup.

At some point I noticed that the development of this feature followed the trajectory of an entire game. It started with an idea I was excited about, had a fairly rough implementation up and running quickly, then spent ages adding features, running into problems, and polishing the results. A sharp peak at the start, dropping into a long valley in the middle, and a slow climb back up to the end. Game development is a fractal.

The timelapse is over 30 minutes long so props to anyone that makes it through. Recording it kept me focused, but I don't think I'll do another timelapse like it any time soon. It's a lot of extra work to annotate and I personally prefer text and pics over video for explaining stuff. The way everything is a video tutorial these days drives me nuts.

If you check the final in-game footage, you can see how bad the dithering looks when compressed onto YouTube. I think this is a serious problem so I'll experiment with ways to get that looking better. Maybe less contrast in the two colors, a special non-dithering mode, or something else that compresses less terribly.
8  Feedback / DevLogs / Re: Return of the Obra Dinn on: July 10, 2014, 07:24:01 PM
But can we see our feet? Durr...?

I've never seen feet that look good in first person and I don't feel up to tackling that myself -> No feet!

The hand/arm isn't just cosmetic so I feel the payoff is better anyways.
9  Feedback / DevLogs / Re: Return of the Obra Dinn on: July 07, 2014, 08:25:33 PM
what happens when you go 1440p or 4k? Some of the classic retro "high resolution" pixel art effect will surely get lost?

As of right now, the resolution is fixed at 640x360. In fullscreen it's scaled to fill the monitor and you just get bigger pixels. The main thing that breaks down at that size is the dithering, which is why I'm focusing on reducing it at much as reasonably possible.
10  Feedback / DevLogs / Re: Return of the Obra Dinn on: July 07, 2014, 01:09:56 AM
How have you been planning the project from the highest level?

I started with a rough mental picture of how the entire game would play out. Visuals, mechanics, progression, events, story elements, etc. Then I just sit down and start picking out bits that I want to work on. I guess that's a big advantage of working alone. I can jump around between tasks to keep myself interested.

Quote
Do you have a master plan you set out with, or are features and solutions more ad hoc?

Yeah there's a master plan but big parts usually end up changing as I go along. Gameplay mechanics are the big question since I don't know if those will really work until they're implemented. For this game in particular, I have an idea about the core mechanics, and some confidence that they'll be ok but, there's always the chance they won't work and I'll need to come up with something else.

Quote
Do you use any bug tracking software or service?

Not yet. I just use git for version control. I'm not a huge git fan but SourceTree makes it bearable. For Papers Please I set up a FogBugz account for bug testing near the end. I may do that again or I may figure something else out. I don't remember being either impressed or disappointed with FogBugz.

Quote
Do you find yourself dividing time between work and personal life, or is your mind pretty much always on the project?

More and more these days I have to divide my time. Recently I've spent a lot of time on Papers Please - creating the Steam trading cards, dealing with support issues, and making a new build to fix some compatibility bugs. I also have a fairly packed personal life and working from home means that it's hard to find long uninterrupted stretches to work. A big part of how I work is based on speed though. If I spend too long on a project I'll lose interest and end up with an unfinished game. And even when I'm not physically working on the game, my mind is always thinking about it. Maybe that's why I get burned out so fast. I seriously cannot stop thinking about the game until I'm completely sick of it. That takes 6-9 months. The clock is ticking.



Hand Reaching

So despite having other stuff going on, I have been pecking away at the hand-reaching implementation. I thought it would be interesting to record a timelapse of the entire construction and coding of this feature. It's not done yet but it's close. Hopefully I can post that in a day or two. Here's a lame teaser:


A door. What wonders lie behind.

The idea is that the game won't have a HUD or item highlighting. Any interaction with the environment will happen using the player's hand. Most of the time the hand isn't visible, but if you get near something interactive, you'll reach for it. Get within range and you'll grip it or hover it. Click the mouse button and you'll open/pickup/etc whatever it is there. So all the interaction is context sensitive.

There's some pretty big limitations to this approach that I'm hoping I can plan around.
11  Feedback / DevLogs / Re: Warboat (Local Multiplayer Boat Battle) on: June 30, 2014, 03:27:57 AM
This looks like a lot of fun. I especially like the clear and direct mapping of the controls onto the character. Should be very easy to pick up and play - great for a 4-player local shooter.

One small suggestion is to add a trail effect to the cannons so their origin & path are a little clearer.

Warboat is the best possible name.
12  Feedback / DevLogs / Re: Return of the Obra Dinn on: June 25, 2014, 08:19:12 AM
Reading about all your experiences with Maya makes me wonder why didn't you just use Blender (which you seemed to like).
I love the art style, but I'm even more interested in the story and gameplay hook, which you mentioned but didn't want to talk about yet.
Your devlogs are a great inspiration! Thanks for sharing your process.

For this project I want to try paid software for everything in the critical path. Especially with the new reasonably-priced Maya LT. I've used and enjoyed Blender, but it still had issues related to being free software.


Story, Gameplay, & Spoilers

I'll wait a big longer before going into the story & gameplay. And it's a good thing I haven't said anything about it yet. My core mechanic ideas have already changed quite a bit since starting. I haven't prototyped anything gameplay-related yet either so it could all change some more. What I've got in mind now seems ok enough so the next steps will be to prototype it. If things work out, I can start fleshing out the narrative using that mechanic.

Actually, revealing the core mechanic will ruin a large surprise near the start of the game. Part of me wants to keep everything secret until I release. But there's not much point in running a devlog like that so the core mechanic will become public when I start prototyping it. The full story will likely stay mysterious until the final release though. Similar to the Papers Please dev process I guess.


Technical Features

I mentioned in the OP that I want to experiment with some technical features. At this point, there are 3 of these:

  • 1-bit rendering
  • Walking simulation
  • Hand-reaching environment interaction

The rendering is mostly taken care of. I'll be tweaking things for a while but the basics are done. The hand-reaching (not around) I'll describe in detail a little later. I worked on the walking today.


Walking Simulation

Sound will be a big part of creating the atmosphere and filling in the holes left by the visuals. One of the things I want to get right is the footsteps across the wooden ship. The game won't have a run button (the ship is too small for it), so the player will be plodding along everywhere. I thought it would be fun to make a simple little simulator to drive the footfalls, scuffs, and head bobs. Something to tie them all together in a logical way. Here's what I came up with:


Walking sim foot discs

There are two discs, one for the left foot and one for the right foot. The circumference of each disc matches the player's stride of 0.5 meters. As the player character covers ground in the game, the discs "roll" along the ground.

In the gif, each disc has a red arc that represents when the foot is on the ground. The bottom of the discs are resting on the ground, so when the red is down, the foot is down. As the black hole passes over the bottom, the foot is in the air. The "foot" of each stride is connected by the line. The dot follows whichever foot is higher. The left foot always leads (for now) and the right foot follows behind. When the player stops walking, the discs return to their natural orientation with the hole at the top.

So with this simple sim, I can attach some events:

  • Red arc first touches ground point -> Foot fall
  • Red arc just leaves ground point -> Foot rise (scuff)
  • Center dot -> head bob
  • Disc speed -> effect volume

The only input to the simulator is the delta of the player's position. There are two neat tricks that make this work well:

1. The radius of the discs starts out small and gets larger quickly as you walk. This isn't visible in the gif, but the idea is that you take a few small steps as you get up to speed. So the initial stride may be 0.3 meters before you're at top speed of 0.5 meters/step. This is simple to model by just changing the disc radius.

2. The y coordinate of the player position delta is scaled by 3. This makes the sim think you're covering much more ground when going up or down slopes and stairs. The result is that the player takes quicker steps in these cases. You can see it in the gif as the screen gets darker when I go down some stairs. It also adds little extra quick steps as you go over small bumps, which is a nice effect.

It's only been tested with temp sounds right now; I'm curious to see if it holds up with proper foley sounds. I expected to spend a few days on this but ended up happy enough at the end of one day that I'll move on to the next tasks.
13  Feedback / DevLogs / Re: Return of the Obra Dinn on: June 21, 2014, 11:23:12 AM
Uhh... What if your lantern would light up those lines?
You wouldn't be actually casting light from the player but instead the lines would begin to be visible in a radius around.

Yeah that was mentioned a few posts up:

If I get to a point where that doesn't work out for whatever reason, I may experiment with turning off the white lines at a certain distance. I generally don't like those kinds of solutions since the transition point (especially with only 1-bit) looks bad.

But framing it as the "lantern" is a cool way to put it. As you say, it doesn't light up anything except the lines, so it's not really a lantern. But just seeing you call that technique a lantern was enough to get me to try it out.

I first set it up with a sharp radius around the player where the white lines switch from black to white. That sharp spherical edge is really obvious though so I dithered it out a bit at the extremities. It doesn't look half bad as a way to reveal things, especially when you're moving around. It does feel very much like a quasi-lantern, or just how your senses in the dark improve with proximity.


The same scene with the white lines dithered out in the distance.


Turning a bit to look down the (empty) deck.

If you stand still it's a little worse since the line dithering clutters things up, and distant geometry is _really_ hard to read. After playing with it for a bit, I eventually felt the constantly changing lines were, although neat, too distracting. I'm going to do my best to make the basic inverse-lit lines work first. There's something about the simplicity of it that I really like. Sorry guys!
14  Feedback / DevLogs / Re: Return of the Obra Dinn on: June 21, 2014, 08:06:40 AM
Do you mean "looks much better to me in general" or specifically for those areas like the lower decks? Have you considered using different lighting models for different situations?

"in general" = "all cases". The top deck has bright lighting from the dynamic moonlight. There's not much range necessary for that so the smoothstep ramp looks mostly the same as the old 0/50/100 ramp there. There's no facility for using different ramps for different areas of the ship but luckily I don't think it's necessary anyways.

What does the last picture look like if the outlines stay black in dark areas? Smiley

Terrible Grin

Losing the inverse-lit lines makes it seem like 1 bit is not enough to tell what's going on. I would have to bathe the ship in light for this to work and then it'd lose all the charm of the stylization.


No inverse-lit lines. Pack it up, we're going home.


Blessed lines in all lighting. Unpack your shit, we're staying.
15  Feedback / DevLogs / Re: Return of the Obra Dinn on: June 19, 2014, 08:55:01 PM
No True Darkness

Do you worry about mostly dark areas ending up looking like negatives?
Sorry if you wrote that already, but will the white edges be affected by light in the final game? Cause now it doesn't really matter if there is light or not, because you see the geometry of the room anyway.

I've been a little worried about this. I like the look so much though that I'll try to work around the limitations. Basically, you'll be able to always make out the geometry, even in perfect darkness. The challenge will be to avoid relying on darkness to hide stuff and instead use occluding walls/doors/etc. Seems like a fun challenge actually.

If I get to a point where that doesn't work out for whatever reason, I may experiment with turning off the white lines at a certain distance. I generally don't like those kinds of solutions since the transition point (especially with only 1-bit) looks bad.

I think this is a general problem with 1-bit rendering, and not necessarily limited to the white lines. When you've only got one bit, and without lots of dithering, it's hard to make stuff fade out, fog, or otherwise recede into the distance. So I need to solve this for more than just the dark areas of the ship. For example, the top decks will be mostly well-lit (so using black lines) and even there I need to keep the player from seeing too far to avoid a mess of flickering pixels and lines.

I'm fortunate that this is an old sailing ship - they had all kinds of stuff blocking long views. Also, I'm not making a horror game so the lack of disorienting darkness hopefully shouldn't limit my design.


Lighting Dither

I'm not sure that amount of dithering works right now. I preferred the black, white and 50% dither of the earlier screenshots.

The 0%/50%/100% dithering looks ok in bright light on the top deck, but not with the subtler lighting of the lower decks. The smoothstep lighting is more versatile and looks much better to me.


Lantern lighting with full range dithering.


Lantern lighting with original 0/50/100 dithering


Lantern lighting with modified 0/50/100 dithering


Lantern lighting with smoothstep 45,55 -> 0,100 dithering

The lighting here has been tuned for the smoothstep dithering so it's not a completely fair comparison. I could tweak each of these to look better, but I really like the high contrast and extra range on the smoothstep transitions. And if I get the lighting right, there won't be the broad areas of dithering that are painful on the eyes.
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 17
Theme orange-lt created by panic