[a game developers perspective]

I.e. From a game developers perspective, if you have a game, and it's doing well, looking good, but has no sfx yet, or music tracks to accompany it.. where do you go?

Do you look at other games that have done well, see the composers on those, and contact them for a quote? Do you do it yourself?

Are you as satisfied with it as you think you would be? Have you found trial and error processes that have led you to using other contractors to do your sounds and music rather than doing it yourself?


And from a composing musicians perspective. How do you find the games? Do you find any game, regardless of your preference, and offer your services? Did you start offering it free (i imagine most if not all did that, I know I did, for at least three projects so far)? Do you focus on a type of game image that compliments YOUR writing style and production sound? This is for everybody from new comers to people who have done it a long time to answer, I was thinking about how I've done up to now, and Dan & I, we're doing alright. It's not business as usual day in day out, but it's a substantial benefit to our living costs.

Another question, have any of you worked on big games? Or with big soundtrack composers? Comparable to the indie scene? I've only worked in the indie scene thusfar so I can't really imagine what it's like beyond this from personal experience, I've just read about others who have worked. And it can be quite extreme the attitudes that some have received when trying to work for film producers and other big media outlets.


I suppose in asking this, I should give a brief glimpse into my own personal experiences, in the hopes you guys will do as well. Keep it on track here folks please If I say anything that sounds pretty obvious or whatever, just ignore it, not everybody will know the signficance of quantizing or getting a new MIDI controller. So explain any complicated lingo you use!

How I began!
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I started in my first year at University, I'm in my third now. Dan Remar contacted me about a favour I said I would do for him, write some tunes for a game he was making. By that stage I had purchased an M Audio Fast Track Pro, which is a good audio interface for pretty much lag free MIDI recording. I bought a MIDI controller as well (which is a keyboard that links into the audio interface and allows real time playing and recording of MIDI signals) I got myself Cubase SX3, nice mini studio going there, and began learning a few things with some free synths. After a good long time and a lot of post-processing, adding echoes, modulation, amp modelling for the guitars, I finished the Iji soundtrack, and Dan was pleased!

The quality wasn't superb, but surprisingly it got a lot of great feedback, and we were quite overwhelmed with that. That's what brought me into thinking about doing this a serious profession. I'm studying music, I understand the theory, why not attempt to put what I love into my day job. I keep saying I and me and we and us, bare with me, I am referring to Dan & myself most of the time!

Further on..
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So I went looking for new projects, actually I was contacted before about a guy who had heard the Iji music and wanted us to do music for him, Katakijin is the game, and it's not released yet, or any of the music, but we finished that soundtrack in June I think. So people were contacting me, and balancing study with this workload was the only thing that turned a few projects away from my door, but I think already having your music in a popular game can ease the searching process and provide a good reference point for your previous rendered works.

Anyway, closing to the end of Katakijin, I began looking, constantly searching and hounding people (politely & with much charm I might add) about their games, did they have a composer? Did they need one? I was offering my service for free, I had gotten a lot better since after IJI, and even more since after Katakijin, and way more since that, so I could show them a high quality demoreel. It helps to listen to the developer and nod at everything that is being mentioned without skipping a moment to ask "what does that mean exactly?" If you're going to do anything, be honest with them, and they will be honest with you, hopefully! I haven't seen any dishonesty in any of my working relationships to date and I think everybody Dan & I have worked with to date have been the nicest bunch of dudes I've ever met (ladies, we don't know what they are? Lay..d?   MOVING ON!)

We got into the Zero Gear http://myzerogear.com team for writing about 15 minutes of music for them, maybe more in the final but the effort from their side helped encourage us and push us to deliver the best. I've found that you can write a bunch of drafts, all of which you think will work, but sometimes, they may not, in fact, only one of those drafts, or none of them, will work, but that's ok, you find this out from the developer, don't write TOO much in one track before showing them it while keeping them focused on the fact it's a rough draft. If you go too far down that road writing in that style, and they don't like it, it's time wasted, and it's not their fault, it's your own, so keep it light and consistently dynamic until they go, mmmm, yes, i like how that's starting to sound.

I think I worked on one track for Zero Gear for ages, before the Zero Gear guys were game to have Dan & I on officially, and it was great, Dave Marsh walked me through every tiny thing in the track he thought worked, and didn't work. Honesty, and communication rock in this industry. Big time.

We now have a great working relationship with the NimbleBit guys and I hope we will encounter working with them again and again in the future, they're a seriously talented bunch.

Present day!
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Working with Extend Studios writing the soundtrack and all the sound effects for TrashMan at the moment! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9XiG61lqpw is an old trailer but there's a demo on their website. They live in Thailand and are also a great bunch of guys, I found them by looking around the internet for games like crazy, I think I spent about 2 weeks looking for games fresh in development and looking for audio direction, and this was the same for all of these games.

Including Dust: An Elysian Tail by Dean Dodrill http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tR7vE6l1MN0 The DBP 2009 winner. I think we're extremely lucky that we're where we are at the moment with these projects, and I am consistently thankful that I am allowed to work with such great people and developers.

However I do not believe luck is the deciding factor: persistence, politeness, honesty and enthusiasm will help you if you keep them on your side and exercise them at every given opportunity. I am nowhere near started in what I am wanting to do, but I am going to keep pushing my game and networking as much as possible and in more different ways throughout the next 12 months, I need to finish the degree first, but after that, full steam ahead.

Sorry if some of this rambled a bit, it's mainly explaining how I networked into finding these developers. I'd like to see the story from the other end of the spectrum, either end really! Musicians and Developers, spill the beans!

www.freesound.org

Physically learn to play that instrument, of course not! But that's not really a Game Music tutoring issue It's just a nice thing to know. Playing an instrument helps a great deal, however.

Same, and to be honest on my side of things I have yet to make a 100% chip, chiptune. The closest I've gotten to writing chiptunes was for Zero Gear, and even then it wasn't really that chippy, just had quirky elements in it.

Chiptunes are good, but predictable, that is where harmony and melody and rhythmic structure are more important than timbre and instrumentation, instrumentation is rarely even an issue with chiptunes because the expected sound demands many of the same over and over. It's not a bad thing, it's just a chiptune thing.

Great point and also 100% correct. There are so many great approaches to writing game music it's incredible, I lurve it.

A calm soundtrack can def help in times of high stress lol. So yes, that's one to consider, the players reaction to the game without music, before you add it. Will it enhance the mood or make it worse? What are you working for or against in the mood of the player?

Instrumentation and timbre are essential, and in many cases, more important than (but not to obliterate the significance of) harmony and melody.

Opinionnnsssss!!!!




For the winion.

Yes, exactly! Could you summarize my posts from now on? You do it so well   !!

I like Super Joe.. but I'm holding out for Ultra Joe.

Bump, how is it going mate?

Iji was not written with the true intention of successfully looping. Since every song dithered into silence except Kinda Green. I think..

LOOPING!

Looping is important for a level track to flow, you don't want a point in a song that feels awkward, like ending in a keychange from the original and then it jolts uneasily back to the original key, if you want to go back to the original key naturally, do it before you loop.

Also, with this in mind, another point can be addressed, sure you can keep the section the same throughout and make looping a lot easier, but write the tune in terms of how long the developer feels it should take to complete that level, or kill that boss, or play out that cut scene. In terms of level tracks, if the level takes 12-15 minutes to complete and you will not hear that track again, there is no harm in making a 2-3 minute track. If it takes longer, say 25+ minutes, a 3-4 minute track is a good idea.

If you write a tune that loops and is 2 minutes, but stays on the Gminor and moves to the Cmaj and back and forth and bla bla bla, make sure you make it dynamic, and rhythmically intriguing, or if it is ominous, make sure it spreads out well, and doesn't fall TOO thin on the ears, you want to convey the feeling the developer is looking for in that level basically.. so listen to them, and you will overcome a lot of confusion, find your methods through their words.

'He's fighting in a deep dark damp cave this level, it's pretty eerie and there's not an incredible rush of action happening all the time' ok what does that mean to you? Distant percussion? spaced out sections? Rhythmically sparse? It's all down to your own interpretation, if you feel it is right, then stick with it. Conviction is the key to nailing these obstacles to the wall so you can turn around and say, 'that's how i like it'.

SOoo...

It's dependant on the game you're writing for, if you listen to JetsNGuns, Machinae Supremacy wrote the music for that as rock tunes, which, like Iji, you could maybe imagine a real band playing. There is nothing wrong with that element, it's one of many that are available.

On a less looping side and more compositional side, one thing I find that is important. Get into it, if you want to convey an emotional for a particular level track, that's good. In TrashMan the intensity of the music goes from 1 to the top throughout the levels. With the final level track being quite intense and dramatic, it runs with the storyline, it reacts to the situation the character you are playing, is in. Almost trying to convey what that character is experiencing is half way to making a track with real conviction.

This is just a lot of rambling, but should be something in there. Maybe.


EDIT: I was reading this recently, I think it's worth the read. So check it out. http://nwn.bioware.com/players/profile_david_john.html Interview with David John, composer behind NeverWinter Nights OST.

dang this game left me wanting more one but considering how short the first game was this must be a tad longer. the only snag I got was the lack of fourth wall breaking with the elevator ride down that and having the whole zip file of the game poof in the middle of the last boss fight forcing me to search my pc for 'the package' then finally gave up and re-download the game to insert this. so far this game has the same script in txt as edmund which I think means people can mess with the dialog and hopefully rewrite the script to add in more sillyness.

And this brings me onto my next point. Kids, don't smoke plastic.

I typed quite a lot but if i was going to summarize it all, I'd say that you do what you feel is right and nobody in this day and age can tell you it's wrong. To be honest, no method is wrong anymore. No method was ever EVER wrong. And it's opinions that try and make it wrong, if somebody wants metal techno, you can do it, then it's done. If somebody wants a string quartet, you can do it, then it's done!!

All of the above posts proceeding my way-too-long-post make more than enough sense and I agree with all of the very simple and valid points made. We're derailing the topic of game Music Tutorials, here should be a resource facility of game soundtrack tutorials, not a debate of what is right and wrong. Sure thing, have that debate, im game for it, but lets keep this as the great library of knowledge and opinions it has always been! I love this place!

Also JMickle, I have been out merrymaking for the last 7 hours so I'm gonna rain-check on that post you made, I will post some more useful information when I can, and thank you for the kind words. I appreciate them greatly. (Irish people do tend to celebrate christmas x5 as much as other peoplez, glugwinZzzzZzzz) It's just Chris Geehan, I, who post through this profile. Dan doesn't correspond as much as I with the Indie Game Community. He will though, in time just shy!

Nite!

Carv worries me, he drinks non stop! And doesn't share ANY of it

And the irish are presumed drunk and willing to fight you for your shoes.


Really.. I'm willing.

Guess I haven't been around long enough. Why was Super Joe banned in the first place? Excess on super? Not enough Joe? A 'hmmm just too perfect' balance of both 'Super' and 'Joe'? A bla bla bla? (etc)

there is an assumption here that music is "created" and or "programmed" instead of just played and recorded as is.

Hi there, I am not sure who exactly you are saying makes this assumption. Are you referring to people whose main profession is not musicianship? I.e. it is true that some game developers do not fully appreciate the process of composition and arranging an accurate and well thought out piece of music, that ties into their game, it's image, it's events, quite brilliantly, or terribly. But this is not a stamp that i'd give all, if even many game devs. They're mostly quite a cheerful bunch Never worked with somebody I don't still talk to now.

Many musicians have their own process of writing, but there can be good thought in a lot of it, and as long as there is conviction within the process, something good can come out of it.

I think sequencing and programming aspects of music writing are being more integrated into my writing, I don't sequence melodies or chords, but I will seek some help from the software I use after writing the tunes basic form, to write the drums, and there is nothing wrong with that. I am a drummer myself anyway, so I have already played out the form grooves and change fills before sitting down to sequence it in via MIDI. I think good music has a very organic growth to it, from it's raw beginnings behind an acoustic piano or guitar or whatever, until it's final export, wheather orchestrated in a full string section, or accompanied by a brass funk band, or assembled with rock guitars, synths bass and drums.

However, heavily sequenced chromatic lines of blistering speeds just shows something that is purely a machine capability, and that's fine, but it's not the definition of music composition, or good music composition, in my honest opinion. So yes, in that aspect I can agree with you on that.

PLAYING and WRITING music has been around for MILLENNIUMS. i mean, people go to college for it. and making music, as opposed to playing and writing, is something that people still hardly go to college for at all.

Everybody has a different way of doing things. You don't need to go to college to learn any of the compositional and arranging skills that some of the greats have today. You CAN, and sure it'll all be arranged and collated and taught to you in a much more straight forward manner with support and assistance from those who have studied it enough to become lecturers in that module. But again, if you are committed and determined you can learn it all from home. Just find the right books.

here's a good one actually: http://www.musicroom.com/se/ID_No/048007/details.html Brilliant for analysing the techniques used in proper orchestration. Especially film music.

Also playing and writing as opposed to making music? I don't understand that. If you write music, you're making music. You've written something, writing it into it's basica essence is making it into the form of a musical piece. The differing line between these two meanings is rather vague to me, could you re-explain it in some other way?

you DONT have to make music with software. please, someone who doesnt know how to make music for their game, just go pick up a guitar and find a chord book. furthermore, maybe sing some thing. and the producing part of that, once you have compositional and harmonic material, goes much much further. if you just record two tracks with different effects it can sound great.

Without getting into the time and effrot debate that many developers will use to learn how to develop better games, you must realise that you would need some degree of software in order to record and develop a good convincing mix of music. Even if that means bringing it back to an egg shaker and an acoustic guitar. Rejection of technological history to a high degree is just going to leave us with .. well not that much, technology-wise. Which isn't really gonna help you convince a game developer that your great compositions belong in their game. From a work musicians perspective. It is different when you are writing music for yourself, your expression 100% your product of creativity. But if you're working in a team, and they need to express a certain emotion, or inscribe a certain signature of sound to the game that makes you go "hey, that's like the music from (game you just made music for), just not as good!" or whatever, it's not a rock solid quote but you get my meaning, it's nice to put a sound to something that people can taste the difference in.

This might seem like too small a thing to make this big a deal of, but the thing about melody and harmony is that its really really hard to figure out how to articulate it and write cohesively if youve never ever played an instrument before. instruments are incredibly amazing! do not undervalue them! your sound card probably has a latency of at least 30 ms, and thats something you can hear. that means that there isnt a direct connection from when you make something and when you hear it, its such a distant thing.
all that said, if you want to learn about form and composition, which is really the heart of music, there is a way to do it. there are ways to create music without really writing anything yourself. you can sample simple melodies, use stock beats, and you can also edit it all in a modular way and use lots of effects. its a great exercise in perspective. and, i think tools can be very usefull to exxplore... all you have to do is make sure you arent creating anything other than music.

You keep going between playing and writing, and then creating music, I'm trying to understand you take on these two things. I think they're the same in most aspect if I am honest. Maybe not when you're cutting samples and beats and putting them together without any theoretical knowledge, but even then, you must be able to realise when a certain sample will not work with the rhythm, or key signature, or another sample, and that there, is important in making it right, and if you can do that, you are creating music. You're re-writing in such a way, that, you don't play the note, but you create a new sound, a new song. But these things come in all the programs that you wish to avoid, samples, beats, everything, in sample form to a point you can just hold down a button and a beat will play.

If anything, ALL of these aspects of music making should be used in a fine mix of the creators own preference. And that's what keeps music fresh, preference and opinion and personal taste of each person who makes some. I think this thread is good for sourcing out multiple ways of making music, you don't have to take one way and follow it by the letter, but infuse all different ways, pick out styles of writing you likes, disregard the ones you don't, find stuff other people may not have found yet, merge things, make hybrids of the original two sounds into a brand new one sound. These are things you have also touched on, but rejecting any technology that helps you out is just an opinionated piece of advice, and although it's not wrong, it can't be seen as a serious option in a world were technology has begun to ease up all the frustrations of previously not being able to have a guitar in your mix because you can play the guitar, or have a drum kit thats not that great because you cannot play the drums well, or whatever.

All these tools should be used and appreciated for their abilities, and the new advantages they pass on to anybdoy using them! I'm not a technology freak, I still compose behind my piano and my drum kit, sitting with a block of manuscript writing out my melodies and chords and changes and forms. But when it comes to writing for a computer game, I use the tools i've got that make me create sounds that otherwise could not be done with an acoustic guitar or an egg shaker or whatever. The production value you can achieve out of programs like cubase studio 5, is out of this world. And I'd never pass up a chance to record with the technology that is available to us all today.

i hope this helps someone, possibly struggling with what it actually means to create music.

there is an assumption here that music is "created" and or "programmed" instead of just played and recorded as is.

Honestly, I am not sure if you're using creative in a more serious tone by the end of your post, so you'll have to explain wheather you are for or against the term created. I think created, played, written, all come under the same roof when composing. Though I think composed and arranged is a safer term to describe the basics of the music writing & making process. But there is not set term for it really.

10... 9...

Wait, where do we begin counting down from? 17? Ok ok 17.

Or 24? Maybe 24..

A new processor, AMD Phenom II Quad Core 3.0Ghz Black Edition. Built to be overclocked. Good times.

A watch. That is all.

To your friend:

Best of luck mate, remember, ride life to the finish line, don't let it ride you. Quality of life is just as important of quantity.

Merry Christmas from Ireland!!! Stay sweet today!