Glad there's a thread on this now. Save systems and retry structures are easily one of the most important parts of designing a game, and it's weird how little they're talked about.

Generally, I think the best type of system for a lot of games would be something like autosaves/checkpoint saves plus a suspend save (i.e. one-time save that erases itself, in case you get interrupted.) The main problem with a save-anytime system for me is the same problem I have with stuff like grinding -- what the developer is doing is basically asking the player to balance a fundamental element of the game's system and difficulty himself, because they couldn't decide how to. When I first play any particular game, I obviously have no idea at what points and how often I should be saving if I want the game to be reasonably balanced, tense, and challenging. Likewise, if I actually do hit a brick wall, due to how the option is presented the first instinct is usually to save some more rather than fight it out, just like the first reaction to hitting a brick wall in a game with an unrestricted leveling system is usually "oh shit, I must be underleveled." It's basically forcing the player to design restrictions that the developers should have already put in place and creating a dumb sense of uncertainty (in the bad way, not the good way.)

The other issue is that the presence of a save-anywhere system can give developers less incentive to provide balanced, well-spaced checkpoints. That being said, quite a few games do have great checkpoints along with quicksaves, like Crysis or Serious Sam 3: BFE (hey look I plugged that game again), so it's easier in them to just ignore quicksaving and use checkpoints only. On the other hand, many other games have pretty shitty ones, like the original Sam games or Deus Ex (though it'd be extremely hard to implement a good checkpoint system in the latter given how the game is structured, so that's a case where I can understand it even if ideally I'd prefer something else.) And then there are the games which don't even provide proper checkpoints at all...

Note that most of the above mainly applies to action games, though some of it could also be used in strategy titles to a lesser extent.

I am actually sucker for save/restore feature in emulators so that it has become part of the play mechanics.

You're neutering the experience, man.

It would look more awesome, but whether it would actually be more awesome is debatable.

Doesn't looking and sounding more awesome make a game more awesome, even if only marginally in some cases? I mean, even with something as visually basic as the original Tetris Arika felt the need to ramp up the graphics and effects in their own series, obviously they wouldn't have done so if they didn't think it would improve the overall quality of the game. And then there are some games that would be completely worthless if not for aesthetics, like most modern psuedo-cinematic stuff, or everything Suda51's ever done (yes I went there (but Killer7 is an exception (but only because he brought in a real designer to work with him)))

i want to get a dreamcast and original xbox so i can play jet set radio, shenmue, otogi, gun valkyrie and a couple others.

i wouldn't KILL though, paying a couple bucks on ebay (to hire a hitman) should be enough.

Isn't Dreamcast emulation pretty good by this point? I know Xbox has barely even gotten off the ground for some reason (even though you'd think it'd be easier than something like GC/Wii given how it's basically a modified version of Windows.)

Because it's the best sandbox game ever made, and also for many of the same reasons I like playing videogames themselves to lesser degrees. I don't think of the process of programming itself as an art form in the same way I do paintings, movies, novels, or games though, but there's still something beautiful about great code especially when trying to understand how older games worked. Demoscene also owns hard.

Edit: How's Annie Anno 2070? The first two games in the series were big faves of mine "way back when" but I've sort of stopped following it since. I'm planning on getting a new desktop soon and I'm looking for some recent games to play.

To be honest, I can't really give much insight on why it works so well, because 1) I haven't played the past games in the series and 2) I'm relatively inexperienced within the city building/RTS genre. All I can really tell you: there are a shitton of interconnected variables to keep track of, the factions work perfectly and each one uses similar resources in interesting and different ways, the scenario designs in the campaign have been consistently challenging so far after the beginning portions, and it's a gorgeous game. In retrospect I probably shouldn't have put it where it was on my list but w/e, I'm generally happy with my choices.

I'm really interested in hearing anything positive about Hard Corps. Based on the demo, it seemed alright, but everything I've read makes it out to be a terrible turd.

Don't listen to them. They probably just can't handle replaying a stage a few times. And most likely they were playing Rising mode too (that's the stat-upgrading perks easy mode.)

Some people have complained that Uprising is a "rehash" of old Contra games. This is complete bullshit (and even if it was true, it would by no means be a strike against the game if it was executed well) -- if anything, it's an evolution of the Contra formula. Extremely sophisticated six button control scheme where every move has its uses -- double jumping, ground/air dashing, bullet reflecting, tackling, vaulting, dodging, ambushing enemies, and more (a lot of these are context-sensitive of course.) And extremely methodical and punishing (this is probably what threw off the big-name game journalists, most of whom think that preferring videogames where you have the possibility of dying means you're a clinically diagnosed masochist) level design to justify all of this and make you learn how to use it as well, so it doesn't just become meaningless complexity. Even the general level structure and pacing is excellent, combining the best parts of the original Hard Corps (ridiculous boss fight setpieces) with the best parts of the older games and other action shooters (actual level/enemy design), and the variety is great.

Other people have complained that the game is "slow." Again, this is complete bullshit. It's a pretty fuckin' fast game; the difference is that unlike, say, a modern Sonic game you actually need to be really good at the game to build speed up and keep it. That's what the aforementioned hugeass moveset is for (well, other than just surviving at all haha), and combined all of the moves at your disposal can get you moving at seriously high speeds (probably among the fastest in action shooters, though I can still think of a few faster ones.) Of course, there's an element of memorizing enemy positions and setpieces, but I don't think that's a bad thing -- it's something that's there in pretty much every game you can die in, and after all R-Type is still a great game. =P

Also, the soundtrack kicks some serious ass, and the visuals, while far from ASW's best, are still pretty beautiful to look at. The only legitimate complaints I have: the game could have afforded to be a bit shorter given how it's an arcade-style game, the voices are kind of annoying, the stealth/escort section in level 5 didn't really work that well for me (though it was still decent), and for some inexplicable reason there are literally 25 extra lives just scattered around in arcade mode (I mean, yeah the game is long if you're trying to 1CC it, but 25?) It's still fabulous, though, and the genre could seriously use more games like it. Unfortunately, thanks to the kneejerk "WTF ANIME, DIS AINT CONTRA N DA GAM IS UNFAIR" reactions people are probably going to remember Contra 4 over this lol (at least, in the short term.)

And you should definitely get to Strania. I don't think it'll be list-changing or anything, but the set pieces are pretty rad.

I definitely plan to once I get a 360, along with all the newer Cave ports. I've heard pretty great things about it, and from videos it looks like a serious audiovisual spectacle too.

Also, glad to see someone else here is spreading the Sam 3 love. It's amazing how Croteam can make a ridiculously great game, with a relatively high-profile IP as far as the genre goes too, and still almost no one seems to notice. Like seriously, you guys all owe it to yourself to play this if you at all like FPSes and/or good videogames. Way better than Bulletstorm or whatever else. Here's a long frothpost I made about it on another forum a little while ago (in addition to the frothpost I made here in the "what are you playing" thread:)

First things first, the level design is a huge step forward from the original game. The open-field fights are still there, but this time they're littered with tons of destructible cover and other useful architecture. In addition to those, you've also got fights taking place on highway underpasses, city blocks and streets, and a few tense corridor sections. None of these are just boring square arenas, either; there are tons of architectural features, like choke points and small buildings or structures with multiple entry/exit points. This stuff matters and you'll need to use it to your advantage, especially on higher difficulties where you have less ammo and can't afford to take as much damage. Checkpoint spacing is also great, and health/ammo pickups are rationed perfectly around it, which means that this game can be comfortably played with auto-saves only. This is what I've been doing, on Hard difficulty (which, true to its name, is actually hard.)

The encounter design and enemy variety are also fantastic. The game does a great job of mixing different enemy types up and introducing new ones, so no encounter ever feels like a situation you've already seen. It helps that many enemies also have more advanced behaviors than just running straight at you this time (though some still do, like the Beheaded Bombers and Kleer Skeletons), since they can also take cover or attempt to split up and surround you from multiple directions. Individually regular enemies still aren't too smart, though (with the exception of the Aurigan Cave Demons, a new enemy which latches onto walls or columns and constantly jumps from column to column trying to get in an ideal position to attack you — makes for some really tense fights, especially when they're combined with other enemy types), but this is a Serious Sam game so you're not going to be encountering too many individual enemies on their own anyway. The bosses also kick ass, and many of them return later on as regular enemies.

There's a new melee attack where, when some enemies get close to you, you can press the "E" key (or whichever key you have it mapped to) for an instakill animation. Usually, this leaves you with a trophy in your hand at the end (e.g. a Kleer Skeleton head or a Gnaar eye) which you have to throw away before you can use your weapons again. It's a bit overpowered in the slower beginning portions of the game, when there aren't that many enemies being thrown at you, but when the game's pace ramps up it becomes much more risky. It saves time and ammo, but it also slows you down, temporarily leaves you without a weapon, and leaves you open to attack from other enemies.

Another new mechanic introduced is weapon reloading. From what I've seen some people have complained that this "disrupts the flow" of combat, which is dumb and untrue. What it actually does is add yet another variable to follow within each firefight, and sometimes even makes you switch weapons since you can't afford to not have any firepower for a few seconds while hordes of different enemy types are coming at you. Some weapons (e.g. the assault rifle) also now have iron sights to make aiming at faraway targets easier, but this cuts your movement speed about in half.

Sprinting is the last addition to Sam's moveset from the previous games. You're able to press the Shift key to run, but you're unable to use your weapons while running, and you're still slower than some of the faster enemies (e.g. the Kleer skeletons.) It's slightly flawed in that it's still a bit too easy to run back and give yourself more space, but that isn't something that works in every scenario. Overall, though, I think it works pretty well, and it helps make the pace of the game even faster.

So far most of the weapons have been fairly standard, but every one is useful. Right now I have: sledgehammer, pistol, pump action shotgun, double barrel shotgun, assault rifle, minigun, rocket launcher, C4, Devastator, Mutilator arm bracelet. None of these weapons make another completely obsolete; even the sledgehammer is useful in times when you can't use the melee attack but still don't want to waste ammo on any of your guns. It's slightly slower than the melee on many enemies as well (e.g. the spiders.)

One of the best aesthetic quirks the game has is the dust that gets kicked up when you fire your weapon or make something explode. It sounds like a small thing, but it adds up and limits your range of visibility, and it's yet another factor that keeps you moving around, trying to get a good angle to aim at enemies and see what's coming at you.

All of the above-mentioned stuff combines in the game's firefights. What it ends up doing is making you follow a bunch of constantly changing factors all at the same time, moreso than the first two encounters did. It's fantastic stuff, and it's way better than TFE. Unfortunately, however, the game starts off a bit too slow; the first two levels are, for the most part, pretty boring. I'm guessing they're the reason why the game got mediocre reviews.

The game looks really good, too! Lots of environmental detail, and lots of PC-specific customization options. I'm currently playing on a version of the "Vivid" color scheme with the saturation slightly turned down. Music is mostly ambient stuff which turns up in intensity when enemies appear, but it works pretty well ingame; the boss themes are especially nice. Even the short "story" cutscenes at the end of levels are fairly entertaining, and the bestiary which appears when you click the middle mouse button is a really nice touch.

Here were my 10 votes, in rough order of quality:

Serious Sam 3: BFE
Hard Corps: Uprising
Dark Souls
Anno 2070
Deus Ex: Human Revolution
Yakuza 4
Crysis 2
The Witcher 2
Catherine
Ghost Trick: Phantom Detective

This list would probably change a bit if I had played all the cool looking games that came out this year. Some probably great stuff that's still on my backlog: Akai Katana, Gundam Extreme Vs., Strania, Total War: Shogun 2.

Pretty much every 360 exclusive, since I don't have a 360. From my Backloggery, that means, among some other things I probably forgot to put on there: Akai Katana Shin (p. much every Cave game that isn't in MAME, aka everything after Mushi Futari), Bullet Witch, Culdcept Saga, the entire Gears of War series, and Operation Darkness.

Game programming is already a computer game. It's a sandbox game, and one of the best there is.

You know what is cooler than this? A game where programming is actually a part of gameplay and in-game content-creation itself.

In my revolutionary metroid-rethought it will actually be the case, and I am not even joking.

Dude, how much crap are you going to put into this Metroid-rethought? =P

The only true RPG is the sims 3

I don't know if you're being serious, but not really. You control multiple characters at the same time (basically making the "role playing" part impossible, unless you have multiple personality disorder), and even aside from that, your characters are separate entities from you (often having their own reactions to events that occur ingame, which you can't really control yourself.) There are some shared characteristics, but overall I think it's more like a dollhouse toy than a role playing game.

Oh wow this topic is three topics now.

Okay, let's get this out of the way first: the only games which I think don't have replay value are bad or mediocre games. Any good game is playable more than once, they don't need tons of achievements or unlockable Santa hat with anime girl shaped tassle on top collectathon schlock to add "replayability." Or, alternatively, you could just never replay any game ever, which might actually be the smarter thing to do given how many awesome games there are out there but fuck that.

And games that are bad due to my tastes changing...a lot, actually. A huge example off the top of my head: in 2007, I thought that The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess and Super Paper Mario were awesome amazing games, to the point where I put what must have been a hundred hours into making a fucking speedrun of the latter and submitting it to SDA. Today I can't stand to even look at either game, let alone play them. Awfully designed garbage. Likewise, when I was like ten years old I loved the shit out of the Harry Potter Game Boy Color games, then I tried to play one again about six months ago and it was pretty bad (though the second game still probably has some of the best music on the GBC, shame no one's ripped it in full.) Sonic 2. EarthBound. Harvest Moon. Tons more.

IMO, 2d games tend to age better than 3D, ALA Donkey Kong, Zelda I, II, ALTTP, Final Fantasy III, Pac Man, etc.  The early 3D games look especially bad.

Mechanically I think both kinds age equally well, but this is definitely true aesthetically. I think it's due to stylization, which is a quality that's always inherent in 2D games due to them being, well, 2D. Most likely, heavily stylized games like Wind Waker or Okami won't age nearly as badly as stuff like Deus Ex or Tomb Raider have. And of course, people will still love the shit out of Metal Slug's visuals a hundred years from now (if the game isn't being directly upscaled to 160000x90000 by then...)

That being said, I kind of like the really-early-3D aesthetic. Stuff like Wolf3D, Doom, etc. Shit only gets bad during the jump from sprites to polygons.

I tried Final Fantasy VII for the first time recently and I couldn't force myself to play past the 4 hour mark. In addition to the modern JRPG convention of drawn-out filler battles (okay maybe not entirely modern at all, but it's exacerbated by the larger emphasis on flashiness), the story seemed pretty trashy and bad (plus a lot of distracting spelling/grammar mistakes in the dialogue.)

I feel that one day super-low-res-3D will be the new pixel art
Just wait for those those 10-year-olds to enter their 30's... we're almost there. Minecraft, maybe?

oh god that would be the worst

THIS ISN'T A BAD BLOCKY ASS 3D MODEL...IT'S MY STTTYYYYLEEEEE

@Ishi: Ugh, I want to play Trip World but it's probably not coming to America, since it wasn't originally released here. Looks great.

Play/emulate the game's "prequel" Gimmick! instead, if you haven't already. It's one of the best NES/FC games, probably even better than Batman (Sunsoft's second most awesome game on the system.) I want to say the best NES/FC action game but I'm not qualified to make that statement given how the later two NG games are still on my backlog. I'm surprised I don't see people here talking about it more.

Original JP version of course, for awesome FME-7 enhanced music.

True single-player role playing videogames (not JRPGs or most WRPGs) haven't been explored much at all due to technical and design restrictions, maybe that's what he meant. Metroidvanias are largely overrated anyway, I think, though there are some good ones (like Wonder Boy III: The Dragon's Trap or, wait for it, Super Metroid.)

From about the mid-1980s and onwards (i.e. when games started getting stage progressions and designs instead of an endless model), I generally find that if a game completely bores me today then it probably wasn't any good in the first place. I play a lot of older games alongside newer games, and many of them are still great today in the year 2012. Graphics don't bother me a huge deal in most old 3D games except when they're completely atrocious, and they almost never bother me in 2D.

Guardian Heroes is good but it isn't great. Seems to be a lot of filler compared to the best arcade beat-em-ups, and the stat elements/magic are pretty broken. Gunstar Heroes is also good but not too great. Long live Alien Soldier, the actual best Treasure game, now is the time to the 68000 heart on fire. Epsilon-Eagle is the real hero.

I've literally never met a patriotic American. I mean, maybe I've just been living in the wrong places, but literally everyone seems to think that the country is shit, but less shit than other places (which would mean it's actually not shit, but hey.)

also re WikiLeaks, some legitimate reasons to bash it: taking sides in what they released and trying to manipulate public opinion (for one example, see the assertions by former members that Assange was holding back cables about Israel) and media whoring.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKy0-pbGG3w&feature=player_embedded

edit: Try to tell this Kojima.

Oh god, this. Handing over that project to Platinum was a CRIME. We will never play Rising in it's original, most beautiful form. 

You would have never played it anyway because all that footage was CGI and they had basically cancelled it by the time Platinum got there anyway lol.

I fucking loved this game. Wouldn't be surprised if it's one of the best (and fastest) racing games ever. I don't see anything wrong with forcing the player to do a bit of pattern memorization; it's something that's present in pretty much every half-decent action game to a degree, and given the speed of the game it would be impossible to avoid completely without making the races boring. In a great game you actually want to have to replay levels instead of just breezing past them in a few tries anyway, in order to try many different strategies and learn the game's system more. Speed should be a reward, not something that you can just get handed without any effort. So yeah, I pretty much agree with static on this one, except I don't think the game is "masocore" by any means; it's very manageable and even fair. It's just a matter of practice.

Also Super Meat Boy doesn't evoke an enjoyable tension, it evokes almost no tension at all. Especially compared to the games it imitates and namedrops in cutscenes. I really hope it doesn't become some sort of holy grail for "challenging" level design amongst the game development community, I see it mentioned a lot in threads about challenge and fairness lately.

So who'd be up for a TIGSource High Score Club for 2012?

What's that? I'm interested to know more about it.

Download a few arcade games, compete for high scores.

That sounds cool. Shoot First would be a fun one.

Think he means actual arcade games not "arcade" games.

Anyway I'd probably be up for this.

Here are a few games which I come back to when thinking about game design. Uncoincidentally, they also happen to be some of my favorite games:

• Deus Ex - Genius map design, worldbuilding, plot interaction, music...pretty much everything lol, except maybe character visuals. They should be writing textbooks about this game instead of whatever "emergent procedural meaningful narrative" hip 'n trendy crap.
• Sonic 3 & Knuckles - These days many people seem to have come to the conclusion that this series is style over substance. I can definitely understand that, but at the same time the classic games, especially 1 and 3K, represented a huge leap for level design complexity in platformers, and that's what's most interesting to me about 3K. It's more ambitious than the first game and far less boring than the second, and where it succeeds it I think it more than makes up for its failures (a bit too long, some dumb bosses, elemental shields were kind of broken, etc.) The biggest problem as always is the series' long-ingrained God Mode ring mechanic, which makes the main goal of the game pretty much trivial. Even with that, however, I'd put it above SMW (which is just as much of a joke challenge-wise, but less flashy and varied.) Probably also below SMB3, but I'm not sure yet on that one, and I'd also have to see for myself just how much of a difference the FC version powerup system changes make to the game.
• Gimmick! - It's astounding what these dudes were able to achieve given a controller with 2 action buttons and a 1MHz processor. Enemy variety is amazing, level design utilizes a combination of advanced (for the NES) physics and stage-specific gimmicks to create memorable and varied challenges, and the star mechanic is a stroke of genius. And on top of all this, you have lots of cool secrets, extremely cute visuals, and a phenomenal soundtrack. Probably my favorite NES/FC game. It was made by a team of 4 people (3 of which sadly never worked in the industry again...) so you guys have no excuse not to give me games this good. (And neither do I!)
• Armed Police Batrider - Extremely tight level design, to the point of being claustrophobic (that's a good thing, not a bad thing.) Brilliant and flexible scoring system. Awesome aesthetics as well, especially that FM soundtrack. I want to put Garegga on here too but you tend to get a lot more inspiration from games you can clear =P
• Alien Soldier - Wide array of player moves leads to extremely interesting level and boss designs plus a high challenge level. The bullet cancelling to gain health is especially great, and it links up with the other moves perfectly (e.g. your flame charge move at full health.) Treasure really played to their strengths here with the boss-rush structure, and they ended up with what might be the best GEN/MD action game. I only say "might" because the Shinobis still exist and I've heard they're even better, but I haven't put a huge amount of time into them yet. I've also heard this game is even better at NTSC 60Hz, but I can't really get used to the weird music. I know that's a stupid reason but lol.
• Serious Sam 3: BFE - Yeah it's probably a bit early, but I feel like I'm going to be thinking about this game a lot in the future. Ridiculous battles, surprisingly great map design, and lots of enemy and weapon variety. It's great how the game makes you follow so many different variables at once during every firefight.
• Fire Emblem - Fabulous scenario design here. Something like this is probably the best a small-scale tactics game is going to get. This is a series I still have to fully explore, though; played a bit of Thracia 776 and I loved it even more, but I never completed it. They're on my huge, huge backlog!
• Vanquish - Cover shooting done right i.e. by ripping away cover constantly, thus introducing higher risk and keeping the player moving quickly at all times. The player's entire moveset is made to complement this, making the game fast-paced and tense as fuck. Shinji Mikami is a genius.
• The Secret of Monkey Island - Shining example of a good adventure game. Well designed puzzles, charming audiovisuals, and witty dialogue combine to create a coherent, interesting, and immersive game world. I really think that the standard for game plot and writing should be more like this when possible, and less like whatever stupid psuedo-cinematic game. I mean, the narrative here works better than most modern games, and it's just a bunch of funny/clever scenarios loosely linked together. Another game I like that had a similar approach in terms of writing but also somehow managed to make a few weird people cry thus proving another thing about some emotional thing is Mother 3.

I could go on and list a lot more but I think this is a good start. As you might notice the main gaming areas I lack in are strategy and fighting games. Working on it, though!

As a non-white minority who is more conservative in his beliefs about gender roles than many people (i.e. that they aren't just pure social constructs, and therefore won't just go away by wishful thinking even if they are outdated in the context of today's society) do I have the right to say that post is dumb?

Also Cave Story is in no way a holy Jesus. As an attempt at making a 16-bit style platformer I'd actually argue it's as inauthentic as Jessica Nigri.