[all the most prominent indie abortions]

... Search my post history, for that word and you'll only find this one and the one you responded to.

childfagot

Also Megaman 9 and 10 are shit. Not only are they shit, but every other Megaman game is bad.

The word being faggot not childfagot, a reference to icycalm's substitution of manchild in his latest essay. But I guess reading and reasoning at the same time is difficult when you're busy picking at straws. Isn't that right, Super Joe ... you faggot. ?omg! !omg? -- "omg he said faggot"

P.S. You suck at Megaman. Nah, I'm not a big fan either.

Moving on people trying to make a point,

"Stop enjoying your ham sandwich, you faggot! There's foie gras out there! No one will make any more foie gras if you keep enjoying your ham sandwich!"

It's not that straight forward, someone will always enjoy making and eating foie gras. The barrier to entry is small. But if foie gras required a larger market to get produced, well, it's going to be harder and harder to find it. At an affordable price anyway. That's the way the consumer model works and quite often it is the producers themselves who will shape the consumers the way they want, to maximise profit. They killed off the CRT after all!

The core of the argument in the context of video games is if the commercial developers can serve you a single pixel that blinks and beeps at the press of a button for $60USD a copy, they'll do it. Obviously with games, there will definitely always be a market for graphical masterpieces, but as the public's ability to detect defects (such as hideous upscaling/filter as a substitution for high resolution rendering) declines, the products will also decline in such qualities to suit. As long as there is a cost advantage in that lowered quality, obviously.

Right now they're sacrificing rendering resolution, input latency and many other qualities because they know the consumers have no way of realising it. They're essentially useless eaters. Look at how they're chewing up the laughable casual games being pumped out left and right. There's no one to warn them about it -- IGN, LameSpot, EuroLamer and other worthless pieces of crap are too busy pushing whatever is the latest "hit" (read: payola) down retard's throat. Well, there is someone, namely icycalm, Recap, me and a few other people who are experts in their own fields while still being passionate about games. I doubt the wave of shit can be stopped in the short or mid-term, but eventually the truth will win out, I'm optimistic in that regard.

Now extending this argument to the influence of "indie" games on commercial/small scale products isn't exactly trivial and it's not entirely applicable since that influence is quite small. But ... well, it's there. You're essentially giving companies free marketing information. And regardless, people will spend their time on such, let's say, "unfinished" (to be polite ) output and have their expectations their taste degraded. It's a slow process and there are more powerful ones contributing to the problem of slow regression, but it's there.

And there are plenty of problems with doujin games, too, not the least of which is the fact that so many of their games feature an entire cast of prepubescent girls (seriously, why?!).

Well, funnily enough I described the same process that lead to this in the section above. The loli/moe~ theme sells, it appeals to the poor taste of Japan's ageing and single population. Just go through a whole bunch of recent animu/mango (hold your bile) and compare the detail within to the old classics. I'd provide examples but I think it's trivial. You can see that all other styles have been butchered by this simplistic style. Look at KoF for another example, check out the sprites for Yuri/Athena and how they changed over the years.



You can also see ZUN's influence peculating through, can't you? Personally, I don't actually play many doujin games -- barely any of them are worth my time. I used to play Perfect Cherry Blossom quite a bit but I haven't touched it since I started playing better arcade games instead. ZUN's other games suck, no offense to the few intelligent people on here who like them. Seriously dudes, you're spending your time on sub-par games. My favourite doujin atm is Crimzon Clover, I'm still not sure if it's a masterpiece or just fireworks yet, though. I'll find out soon.

That's all from me on this thread. Well, almost. Someone said that icycalm is only concerned about popularity (as in, popular indie games to review), well it would be obvious why that is the case if you read the appropriate thread:

http://forum.insomnia.ac/viewtopic.php?t=3356

I plan on eventually publishing reviews of all the most prominent indie abortions and then creating a handy page from which all of those reviews will be linked, for easy access (and cross-internet linkage action). That page, along with my completed Genealogy, should go a long way towards countering the decadent artfag movement.

...

And now the question is, which games are worth taking apart in detail? The purpose of this thread is for people to bring such games to my attention (and to the attention of anyone who, like Icemael, would like to lend me a hand...) Please stick to the most famous games. None of this trash is really worth more than a couple of sentences, and the fact that we are devoting entire pages for a handful of them is already an extravagance (-- which is justified, however, by the menace to the artform that these games represent). So I don't want to be making any more effort than is absolutely necessary.All the lesser known indie abortions can be dealt with in a one-paragraph mini review, if at all.

So here's the plan so far. I'll be updating the list indefinitely, as the fags keep churning out more trash, and the pseudocritics keep lapping them up and making them famous.

So you see, he's not reviewing the games as an ends to itself. He's asking for the "indie games"*  that are the ones which have risen into prominence. He can't exhaust the entire list of your favourite "indie games" and no one should ask him to. He'd end up hanging himself, be honest, just look at the quality of the non-prominent indie games. I'm actually slightly disgusted he spent so much of his time on this already, even though I understand what he's doing. Anyway, I'm guilty of such behaviour as well. I simply hope my time here was spent well.

Good night, gentlemen.

* (if you're still wondering why I quote this, it's because I think it's a misnomer)

If you are not making game you have no guts.

Gee I wonder where I heard that argument before. Dude the scene is long gone, I've long given up resurrecting it.

Blademasterbobo, I was really responding to that and this:

Plus, it's not just the quality, it's also the quantity... the levels in metal slug are pretty huge, graphical content-wise. You're saying that one talented artist could do that? That's pretty insulting to the horde of artists that worked on Metal Slug

Is that enough context for you? Or do I have to reply to you without quoting at all in order to avoid these little attacks. (I won't, I will always use quotes when appropriate)

Anyway, I thought you've read my previous posts and replies about the subject (the whole argument that rotoscoped/pixel workups on partially 3D rendered graphics aren't pixel art) to assume that I understand the difference in the efforts required.

Not what I said, and not what you said, but whatever. For a second there, I thought you were done taking quotes out of context.

You did say that and I was saying that. Don't shove this context argument into my face. Everyone can read the thread, the context is right there. This is really pathetic.

In comparison, indie development teams generally consist of one or two people. To achieve a game comparable to Metal Slug would take several, several years.

The doujin scene seems to have people willing to put in the time, somehow. They're just that dedicated I suppose.

You don't even have to use high-resolution pixel art really, I was really discussing the effect of releasing these games on the commercial developers with Derek -- that was the context of the discussion. There's many styles you can use to cut down on development time. The problem is all I see is quadrupled pixels, pixelation and more quadrupled pixels.

[REALLY]

I was just pointing out that you misjudged the amount of effort involved in those two games.

Believe me, I'm completely aware of the effort involved. A single artist could do pull it off in theory, but it would require all their time, basically. And their sanity, to a degree.

Also, the bigger the game, the more artists would need to be involved. That's simply the nature of things. If you look at MSH by Capcom, there was more than ten artists used for just a single character. That's the sort of effort we're talking about here.

It's either this or polluting the world with sub-par games, your choice. Do you REALLY have what it takes to be a great developer? Or do you want to hide behind the "indie" or "small" label (despite the fact that not too long ago, small "independent" groups were still releasing commercial quality games) for the rest of your time?

Gilbert, you of all really people shouldn't talk.

This is just too much.

I understand I'm asking for a lot. Just look at yotsubane with his pre-rendered graphics in Crimzon Clover, though. Apparently, five years of hard work and the results are easily comparable to the state of the art easily. Now high-resolution pixel art is tougher but saying "it's too tough, let's quadruple the pixels" ... well, it's down right pathetic bro. It's fine for what Derek likes to call a "sketch" (really, a prototype) but shouldn't be acceptable for a finished product.

Even back in the late to mid-90s small developers like me were targeting SVGA+ graphics. Of course, the animation was limited and the art sucked but we still tried.

But I think that for an indie dev, this style is not realistically attianable, you would need an eternity or an army of artists to make a complete game in this style.

Well, if you spent the same time you would have spent making all those side project alongside a great and motivated artist, you could outdo even metal slug if your talent allowed for it. Don't make excuses for yourselves, it stops you from growing -- it stops you from ever reaching new highs.

The techniques used does effect the style, I won't deny that. However, you cannot say it isn't real pixel art, that suggestion is laughable.

Of course, when it comes to the new Megaman games, I agree with you 100%... those were obviously just an attempt to cash in on nostalgia.

They could have "cashed in" just by releasing a proper fully-funded sequel though, they just knew people would still buy it despite the pixelated, crappy graphics and audio.

[exception]

What does this even mean, lol.

Well, yeah, you should read some clinical psychology then. You are still reading illustrated neuroscience textbook for children, so I can understand.

Textbook for children, yeah... lol. Dude, give it up, you've got nothing. Some incoherent garbage you typed up from the top of your incoherent head is certainly not "clinical" psychology.

Really? Is that why you've accumulated more than a thousand posts on a game development forum? Note that my sudden surge of posts are the exception not the rule. If I stop having fun, I stop posting, simple as that.

You registered to tell us that video games are derailing humanity. That's taking it a bit too serious, dude.

Yes and I still stand by that statement. You guys seriously are too myopic to see it though, clearly...

I can dominate you in every single aspect. Hoho. (:

Internet tough guy routine huh? Dude your country couldn't even dominate a few planes, I don't think you could handle me personally at all.

(some post about use of "faggot")

... Search my post history, for that word and you'll only find this one and the one you responded to.

Guys, is this all you can do against me? Cry? You're wasting my time -- no no, I'm wasting my time, you can't help being you.

Dude can you read? I never called him a faggot, though I'm open to the possibility.

both of you are retarded stop winking and wanking at each other

[congrats on being a murderer]

I'm not asking you to respond to what I say at all, my posts aren't some pathetic plea to be taken "seriously" or whatever.

Don't worry I never mistook them as such.

I'll just continue to throw my childish ad hominem insults at you whatever you post here.

And I'm the troll, right guys?

Nutjobs like you are impossible to argue with anyway. I might as well try telling this guy that religion is bullshit. Why bother?

I'm not a nutjob, you clearly are, you obsessed freak. Furthermore, it is impossible to defeat me in an argument, in your case. For the humans on this forum though, well, they stand a good chance if I'm tired or something.

Just the fact that you can write something like this (segment of my awesome post)
unflinchingly alone makes none of your arguments worth considering because they're all justifications for your batshit crazy belief system.

I was smiling while writing that. If you can't bear through my style it's your own loss.

Oh and if you really are a True American War Hero (or whatever other country you come from), congrats on being a murderer, fuckface.

Thanks coward! Enjoy your armchair.

Wow you're right! When you figure something out, writing it out is so tedious.

You still don't get it. I wouldn't give if you wasted three hours of your life deconstructing my "analysis" (lololololololol) of  Warioware I wrote in 5 minutes. In fact, I'd laugh at you, just as I do now.

Which is precisely why I only refer to you mockingly rather than respond to what you say. I did share that quote however, so that others who are intelligent enough can laugh with me. You're free to laugh alone, or at least those who would also laugh at toilet humour. (By the way you clearly didn't get the sarcasm, but never mind, I don't expect you to get anything at all.)

This seems more like a problem of marketers than creators, to me.

Always the case but often the creators themselves are also marketers... I suppose I'll just write up my provisional argument here, even though I usually like to think through it right to the end. I hope I've left it in good hands.

The decision to use pixelated graphics usually ties into other elements which refer to games produced for old hardware, such as a reduced palette, FM modulated music and sound effects. In the old days it was acceptable because the graphics and sound usually pushed the system to its limits. Even things we would consider laughable were considered revolutionary back then. Nowadays, it obviously has nothing to do with pushing the system to its limit, but instead fooling the player into thinking he's playing the game on older hardware. Essentially, it is a simulation of a hardware from a distant past. That way, the game is judged on a lower scale of technical merit, despite having additional resources at hand. The advantage one nets overall is lower effort for the same results. The hardware itself is extremely advanced, there is no real talent involved so the old art of optimisation is not required. I do wonder how some of you would perform if you were to write up games targetting actually old hardware. Needless to say, only the best and most dedicated would remain -- and even then, their time would have been better spent on modern hardware.

Of course, having written that lucidly, I can't help but smile when I play games that use this strategem, i.e. I am a potential victim of it. I would say that Spelunky's graphics and sound were done tastefully for the most part of the game I played, if I were to swallow the blue pill. Take a look at ring^-27 which uses the gameboy resolution and very simple sound (the music is actually a bunch of OGG files btw). It's even more interesting because it's impossible to implement ono a gameboy colour since the sprite limit would be broken, but most people wouldn't know that. They'd just play the game as a simulation within a simulation ...

Mind you of course, these days the journlolists don't have a clue about computer hardware and wouldn't be able the judge a game on its technical merit if it blew their eyes out of their sockets.

Also, I think Scott Pilgrim is a bad example in this case.

A much better example would be the Capcom megaman games which even simulated sprite limits, lol. I did mention that didn't I? (can't scroll and find it, already spent more time than I can afford here)

I'm sure marketers decided to hype it up as "retro", and the game itself is definitely referencing old video games. But in terms of the pixel art itself, I think it's wonderful. It perfectly captures the comic book it was based on and increasing the resolution or using polygons would add nothing to it.

I agree with you on the polygon proposition (actually the polygon fetish is almost as bad as the quadruple pixel fetish but nevermind that for now) but I'm not sure I absolutely agree on high-res. Look at the high resolution pixel art in Guilty Gear for example, the art is clearly worth it. The game would suck without it. The old down side is the lower number of frames but with even more effort (and money $$$) that could have easily been eliminated as an issue. Imagine that game with twice the resolution -- oh man, it'd be awesome. The problem is it would cost way too much to produce and no one would buy a beat 'em up these days for the price necessary to turn a profit. They're too busy buying the usual crap, whatever it is kids buy these days *shrug*. Worse yet, as a friend once said, the game itself sucks so the assets are completely wasted on it.

Because you're obviously much more intelligent than me, I thought maybe you'd have figured that out by now.

Wow you're right! When you figure something out, writing it out is so tedious. I'll treat you in kind and I'll leave this useless segment of text for the others:

I'd argue that WarioWare is a very cohesive game if you look at it from a higher level, i.e. it's based on the simple premise of facing the player with different reaction-based micro-challenges in quick succession. That's conceptually not too different from your average bullet hell shooter, or any other action game really.

Bon appétit and have a good L.O.L!

By the way Derek, I hope you don't take what I said about discussing random level generation the wrong way. It's not that I don't want to talk about it with you, I do. It's just that this thread isn't the best place for it. Perhaps when/if I have something more concrete, I'll present it in another thread on this forum.

Artfags: All video games are art, but some games (message games) are more equal than others.

Icyfags: All video games are art, but some games (hardcore games) are more equal than others.

They're saying the same thing!!!

Except they're not saying the same thing, like icycalm already pointed out, what you call "hardcore games" also have these "messages" you speak of:

But let's forget about philosophy, which no one who plays videogames other than me seems to be able to grasp anyway, and let's bring the level of the discussion all the way duuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhooooowntown, so that everyone can understand it.

You want a message, dude? I'll give you a fuckin' message. Gears of War has a message for you. What message is that? That killing aliens is your only option if they are out to kill you first.

What -- you don't think that's a worthwhile message? What are you, a communist? Alien sympathizer? You turncoat traitor yellow bastard scum!

Besides, the real message is the game, the medium is the hardware it runs on. You can use games to post up your IM messages for all I care, it doesn't turn them into "art", lol.

EDIT: The post is almost redundant since Breadcultist replied adequately but hey, I'll leave it up for the second last sentence.