best interview 

the theme was already announced in this thread

Not everybody was born with 10 fingers. On each hand.

I have heard Paul's typing. The sound is reminiscent of thunder - it echoes throughout the skies, bringing terror down upon those who hear its cacophonous roar.

Nah, I suck at serious.

Also, Melly I will be worth every dollar.

Also, this thread seems a lot dumber now than when I wrote it.

just make it a poll and change your name to phubans and the transformation will be complete

Gonzo the Great

who is the least important person?

["People don't debate to win or lose. Hopefully, they do it to learn or gain another perspective." -allen]

From what I gathered of the thread, Derek isn't going to be adding more moderation or implement any of the proposed stuff (well, he hasn't said anything about the hour long bans. I hope he doesn't implement those.) Derek mostly seems to agree with... well, here, I'll just show you.

I care about this place and the people that post here a lot. If I didn't I wouldn't get so worked up about shit like this.

For sure, I totally understand and appreciate that fact. And sorry about not being around enough.

Maybe I should take care of my own things. I don't think this place will fall apart anytime soon either way. It's not like I was holding the dams or anything.

I don't think the place will fall apart, but you were the only active mod and were doing a lot to keep things together. I definitely disagree (strongly, even) about a lot of the thread locks, post dromes, and calls for banning, but don't undervalue your impact on the site.

I just think we need to rethink the moderation policies and maybe get together a whole team of mods that can watch each other's backs. It's too much for one person to moderate the whole site.

Honestly, it is the older members that make it hard to moderate, because WE like to trash-talk the people who disagree with us and make snide comments and jokes about them. The old TIGSource I remember had plenty of trash-talking and fighting. It's probably more civil now than it was back then.

Instituting hard rules about decorum and sticking to them would annihilate half the board, including a lot of people posting in this thread.

Regarding Reddit, I visit the site daily and they have the same problems. It's why a good number of their community sticks to certain subreddits that they like and avoid the other ones.

And you don't think it's healthy for the forums because... it means you have to coexist with people you don't fully like?

I think that's totally healthy. And the forums seem to be doing really well (EDIT: in terms of activity) - what is the proof to the contrary?

And regarding Eva, because I know a lot of people in this thread are indirectly referring to her...

I think she feels like a marginalized minority in a marginalized minority... and she's pretty young, isn't she? I can understand what it's like to feel pent up and angry about being left out. So she's got a short fuse! If you feel like she's being out of line, just tell her she's being out of line and throw her a goddamn bone instead of provoking her. Seriously, she actually seems pretty cool when people aren't reacting poorly to her.

A lot of these young indie assholes remind me of when I was a young indie asshole and I thought it was cool to act out and talk a lot of shit to people older than me.

I was trying to avoid going out of my way to quote Derek, but whatever, this is what he's said on the subject so far. I didn't want discussion to stop just because the "admin" has already said what his stance is, but it seems to have mostly died out now, anyway. (In the hidden thread, everyone is arguing about Podunkian, and here, everyone arguing about murdering me.  ) I still think it's worth discussing, partly because of what Paul said, and partly because the discussion can still (however unlikely) affect the mindset/behavior of some of the people involved. (Which is also linked to what Paul said)

Or, more concisely,

"People don't debate to win or lose. Hopefully, they do it to learn or gain another perspective." -allen

I think pretty much all of Derek's quotes are posted now, I'm probably missing one or two though.

Also, the stuff about Dragonmaw becoming a mod / the hour long bans etc hasn't been decided upon either way, afaik.

Blademasterbobo is a cyber terrorist in wartime, he's guilty of sabotage, espionage, crimes against humanity -- he should be killed, but we won't do that.

Says the man with the subversive signature

Behind who's backs? Most of it has virtually nothing to do with 90% or more of the community other than moderating issues which realistically should be between the moderators and the administrator, not everyone else (until at least some official decisions are made).

Also note that in the secret one it isn't just between the admin and the mods, it's between people with a certain post count and the mods (and sometimes the admin [Derek Yu] although rarely)

@Jimmy, I know Cas was kind of a shithead but I'm just pointing out that he wasn't the only shithead, and yet he was the only person banned.

more like everyone was against cas cos a tigsourcer happened to work on the ripoff game.  

this

IIRC Farmergnome was sincere and calm while princec was trolling all over the Kong and the rest of the Internet.  It's easy to be cynical and say that there was some sort of conspiracy, but he was being a dick, that simple.  Besides Farmergnome was either new or not very well known in the community at the time, but I could be wrong.

I just went back to the thread and on the first page, the first negative post is from the guy who ripped cas off (who is not banned):

Hi cas, im farmergnome, I did the art for Space Mutants From Space. Thanks for shitstorming our kong page, I see you have taken it on yourself to do the same here, great moves mate, I wasnt sure who you spoke to before (probably wes), but do you realy make a habbit of publicly being a tool?

Anyway man I thought if someone had a problem with my art they would use my email link on the game before spamming it around the net like a tard, thanks.

edit: please stop spamming the kong page with level one accounts also man, Im trying my hardest to avoid my impulse of returning the favor, I dig your games and shit, even call me a fan, Id rather keep it polite if possible.

(And on the second page Alec joins in, instigating things  )

Of course, Cas became pretty obnoxious later on, but A) who wouldn't, after some of the shit people said to him, B) a lot of the LOL IM NO TROLL people posted in there, trolling, and C) Cas didn't even post in other threads (afaik), which I only mention because a big argument for rudeness-bans is that people who deserve one ruin every thread they post in.

http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=6961.0

hmm, I wonder where he got these skills from

 

[INDIELEAKS REPORT]

INDIELEAKS REPORT

(I'm not sure how worth showing any of this crap is, aside from the one hour bans stuff, but might as well post it all. Also, I just quoted quotes with nested quotes to make it easier to follow specific replies (and so I wouldn't have to work as hard ))

IMPORTANT: This is a lot of shit (what follows is the definition of tldr), but there was even more shit. I left the other shit out because it was even more repetitive or stupid than the shit that follows.


First, we have an argument between Miroslav and Dragonmaw started. They were mostly arguing about whether or not Dragonmaw should be one of the global mods:

Yes, one instance of forum derailing is enough to point it out and question his abilities, because aside of that he is also trying hard to justify forum anger. I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only person who thinks the same. The issue with IRC was noted before and he really tried hard to justify using word "faggot". I mean seriously?

His argument with Adam was downright awful and Adam was pretty rational. Go back and read it. Yes, go back and read it carefully.

I can ignore all this shit, seriously. I was relaxed at the start and wanted to make a small contribution, I wanted to point that out, I didn't have to, it was voluntary, but then got angered because I was called all sorts of names for no reason. You helped it, I can tell you. Crowe too.

And by telling me that I have to know him in order to tell these things, you're just ignoring the context of discussion.

The context is that you are telling people I am unfit to be a moderator because I am "justifying the use of the word faggot" (oversimplification to the point of ridiculousness) and that I, at one point, had an argument with Adam where we were both cocks to each other.

I can't tell whether you are doing this on purpose to try and make me out to be an awful person, or if you genuinely believe this horse shit.

This is the important debate, if any of these can be considered "important." They're arguing about whether or not the forums should implement smaller bans in order to stop flame wars and whatnot.

One hour bans sound sexy to me!

Regarding bvanevery, I think he wasn't banned - he left the forum because of 'public ridicule' and I actually felt bad because of that. I'm not really fond of opening "should he be banned?" threads as they over exaggerate issues and are most often not adequate punishment for people's mistakes.

This would be a great reason for us to have clearer rules, require warnings before bans and having temp-bans as a non-destructive option.

i would prefer nobody is ever banned but spambots, sock puppets, and people who posted illegal material. if we are going to keep the policy of banning people just because they are offensive to some others then more consistency than the previous 'this guy seems too aggressive/unfriendly for this place' would be preferable, but my previous statement (in another thread) about how such "clear" rules are impossible to enforce fairly still holds: i don't think it *is* possible to have clear rules and to enforce them objectively when it comes to different perceptions and intents regarding offensiveness.

unless the rules are extremely objective: e.g. 'no using these specified words'. but stuff like 'no excessive disrespect' or 'no personal attacks' are not clear rules, and impossible to enforce fairly.

Are you against temporary, very brief bans as well? I think giving someone an hour to calm down and think is okay.

Because I totally agree that any ban above, and this is pushing it, a day is far too long.

i think that's a lesser evil, but not a big deal unless their posts are deleted, because at least it doesn't interfere with with what they said, it only interferes with how fast they can respond to others. i don't really see the point of it, but i don't think it'd be as destructive to the community as banning people forever for being too insulting or aggressive.

but i've never really seen it in practice, so i have no idea how well it's work. it's just theoretical unless tried. does anyone know of any major forums that have this temporary (1-day or less) banning practice in place? and how well it works for those forums? empiricism is key.

but basically my guess is that it wouldn't do any good whatsoever, but it wouldn't do much harm either.

As a former member of forums that used that kind of moderation in the past, it works.

*Can* work. It's also just as likely (or, depending on the community, more likely) that it will just rile members up.

I feel that banning anyone who is not patently a spambot or breaking the law is a shame. Perceptions of what behavior is deemed appropriate can be used to determine if someone is bannable -- it is how we decided to eliminate Super Joe -- but in that case it's surely necessary to involve the community -- again, as we did in the case of Super Joe -- rather than just the moderators. And even in that case, I think a lot of people would have preferred he be allowed to stick around...

It was called "Lazy Fuck" when I went to it, it was a 20-something general interest forum.
I'm not sure I haven't been there in about 4 years. When people would come to just cause trouble, or for the sake of offensive, in their first post, they would be banned, if a frequent member, they would be temp banned. This didn't, in any way, impact the discussion or create a situation where users felt they had to walk on eggshells.

Honestly, I don't want any one banned, I think mods need the power to ban so that they can warn users with authority. The current system is broken because Moderators are impotent or punished when trying to deal with nefarious elements.

Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post.
Super Joe was a bad element, he turned every thread he posted in, into a thread about him. The process in which he was banned martyred him, and people still like him because non sequitur humour can be funny, that or he was the counter to some user's perceived injustices in indie games.

After this it ventures into questionably newsworthy territory again, with the argument segueing into a debate on whether or not Super Joe was a troll and whether or not PIGScene is self-pitying.

will do a search for it -- anyone else have any other forum examples? a larger sample size improves confidence

regarding super joe, the reason i like him isn't because of non sequitur humor, it's cause he was and still is an important member of the community: he did voice acting for many of podunkian's games and level design for a lot of them too, he wrote for pigscene (reviewing indie games), made a lot of insightful comments about indie games there and on these forums and continues to do so through his twitter and irc even though he can no longer post here.

yeah, but my entire point in this thread is that no matter how much nonsense there is it's not worth losing someone's insight over

While you're point is respectable enough, my entire point is respect is a two-way street. People who act like a fool and lose privileges have themselves to blame, particularly when rules are posted and they are warned. Don't get me wrong I'm one to forgive, but people need to realize what they stand to lose.

I guess personally I hate trying to read through 3 pages of shit-posting to get to something interesting. I think I brought this up last year.

also, in what way is pigscene self-pity at all? i know podunk and super joe and they never seemed to be the type of people who feel bad for themselves; if anything they're the opposite extreme. the site is basically entirely making fun of art games; what kind of self-pity do you see in it?

The site always struck me was "I wish I was one of the cool kids!" People acting out to get attention.

but podunkian and super joe are very cool, their games very popular (the underside was the second-most anticipated indie game (after fez) in a poll, and merry gear solid was a hugely popular game. dungeon was also a very popular game, even covered by wired) so i don't see that at all. that seems petty to say something like that about such established indie game devs. certainly at least i'd say that their games are more popular than most of the games they reviewed.

I have no ill will against either of those fine fellows, I was talking about their website. But, if it's true that they are more popular then the games they mocked, doesn't that seem MORE asshole-ish?

i agree that people should take responsibility for their actions, i just think the community lost far more than super joe lost when we banned him

Though, to be fair, all he lost was an audience.

EDIT, off topic: I'm going to try and keep up with your resolution as well, though I don't think I'm going to dig back 3 years!

PIGScene was snarky

Yes.

"Funny 'cuz it's true" at best

No. It was primarily satirical. Satire goes, or should go, deeper than "Funny 'cuz it's true". FCIT is more along the lines of "Hey, so how about that thing where your dog shits in your slippers? Yeah? Yeah, I know, right?"

and self pity the rest of the time.

Again, no. Perhaps there was some level of self-pity (I guess there always is, sort of, to a degree), but mostly it was not giving a shit about giving a shit.

Super Joe was funny, didn't take himself too seriously, definitely had a lot of interesting insights (even if they were only implied in what he said at times), and, as Paul said, he was productive. He actually used his (apparently considerable) reserves of energy to make things. He was overly trolly a lot of the time, but I still think he was more of a G than most of the people he was trolling. Also, most of their responses to him were whiny, childish and basically dull. He was like Dark Fish, maybe. Anyway, remember: your prospective sexual partner totally digs a sense of humour.

Also, Paul's right. They were definitely the cool kids. Not the only cool kids, maybe, but cooler'n most nonetheless.


Errbody just needs to be more chill, more of the time.

their mocking had nothing to do with how popular or unpopular a game was: they mocked both popular art games and unknown ones. and as far as i know most of the people who were mocked found it funny and recognized it as humor, so i don't see it as "asshole-ish" at all. i mean, it's like weird al yankovic: most of the musicians he parodies appreciate it, there was only that one guy (amish paradise) who resented it.

(they also don't actually believe art games are bad, as an aside. dungeon is basically an experimental game popular because of its "trick" rather than the gameplay too. also braid is one of podunkian's favorite games, even though one of his pigscene song lyrics goes "nobody wants to play another indie game like braid")

the only thing that i felt may have gone over the line is when they reviewed spelunky before it was released (someone apparently leaked the game to them from a secret forum here, podunk still won't tell me who it was; it was the original indieleak), calling it a la mulana clone, but even that probably helped spelunky's popularity more than it harmed it.

Again, no. Perhaps there was some level of self-pity (I guess there always is, sort of, to a degree), but mostly it was not giving a shit about giving a shit.

That's exactly how they wanted to come off as, and it saddens me that you actually bought it, Corpus.

(Dragonmaw's last post also pretty much sums up everything hidden that isn't in this particular thread.)

This is one of the best student showcase's I've ever seen

All of these games are fantastic (except I haven't played GLiD but from the screenshots it looks nice)

and three* of them were made in unity  


* (toys, fract, paperplane)

[...]

and paul, it's a bit silly to root for a game based on what it was created in. although i know you have a big gay soft-spot for game maker.

 

you cannot run from the aquin. you cannot hide from the aquin. the aquin will find you. the aquin will apathetically give your information out to somebody who cares.

that info isn't hard to find, and most of it is probably fake. he used to list his address entirely in a different state. there's no way he'd use his real address to register a domain. his paypal address is real though.

im sure aquin knows this.

you cannot run from the aquin. you cannot hide from the aquin. the aquin will find you. the aquin will destroy you.

I have a feeling icycalm would dislike IWBTG regardless of its difficulty. 

Can you still exploit it by killing your opponent and then killing yourself to reset the round instead of having to progress back to the center?

It seems like this is the type of game where if you are doing something like that on purpose you're playing it with the wrong mindset. Besides, it's 1v1 and the people are in close proximity to each other: you can always invoke the anti-exploitation technique known as "smackin' dat fool upside his head."

Even if you put his site down, it won't stop him from setting up a new one.

There must be a better way to end his reign of terror.

Maybe making PayPal freeze his account?

fighting a man who likely has a mental disorder with a shitty, easy to abuse system in a semi-evil corporation: A+

why can't we just ignore this guy, if anyone buys shit from him they deserve to be ripped off. it's kinda funny and sad and this shit probably results more from stupidity than malice.

[Introduction]

   Behind the ostensible global mods sits enthroned an invisible Yukaza owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the TIGS. To destroy this invisible indie elite, to befoul this unholy alliance between corrupt moderation and corrupt developers is the first task of independence.

(George W. Bush)

   While you here do snoring lie,

    Open-eyed art fagery

    His time doth take.

(icycalm)

Introduction

To radically shift TIGSource behavior we must think clearly and boldly for if we have learned anything, it is that the Yukaza does not want to be changed. We must think beyond those who have gone before us, and discover cultural changes that embolden us with ways to act in which our forebears could not.

Firstly we must understand what aspect of TIGSource or indie elite behavior we wish to change or remove. Secondly we must develop a way of thinking about this behavior that is strong enough carry us through the mire of moderated threads, and into a position of clarity. Finally must use these insights to inspire within us and others a course of ennobling, and effective action.

Authoritarian tranquility is maintained by conspiracy

Conspiracy, Conspire: make secret plans jointly to commit a harmful ban; working together to bring about a particular result, typically to someone’s detriment. ORIGIN late Middle English : from Old French conspirer, from Latin conspirare agree, plot, from con- together with spirare breathe.

The best board is but a kind of conspiracy against the rest of the TIGS.

(Derek Yu)

Where details are known as to the inner workings of authoritarian regimes, we see conspiratorial interactions among the independent elite not merely for preferment or favor within the regime but as the primary planning methodology behind maintaining or strengthening authoritarian tranquility.

Authoritarian regimes give rise to forces which oppose them by pushing against the individual and collective will to freedom, truth and self realization. Plans which assist authoritarian rule, once discovered, induce resistance. Hence these plans are concealed by successful authoritarian powers. This is enough to define their behavior as conspiratorial.

Thus it happens in matters of forums; for knowing afar off (which it is only given a prudent indie to do) the indie elite that is brewing, they are easily cured. But when, for want of such knowledge, they are allowed to grow until everyone can recognize them, there is no longer any remedy to be found.

(Paul Eres)

I don't either but I'm not going to start ranting about how he was, cuz he was a douche.

If the people that some people are suggesting be banned (eva for example) were banned, however, I would probably have a big problem with that. Tranquility is not worth censorship imo. (and eva being a troll is subjective. this is why i keep talking about alec. some people thought he was a troll. would we ban him? no of course not.) In the end, however, I think I'm replying to this thread too much so I guess I'll hold off for awhile before I reply again.