@Nava, I'm not blaming him for the entire post. I think you're forgetting two important things here, one being that Alec would have people banned over shit in that post, and two, that the other IGF thread is more or less completely calm.

Also Alec still kind of fueled the flames: if you think he was fine by starting the thread, you at least have to admit he added to the trolling when he posted what basically amounted to "lol i trolld u guis ur all dumb for arguing and being angry lol im smart u dum" later on.

But regardless, this isn't an argument about whether or not Alec is to blame for everything. I've tried to address that in most of my posts. As far as my last post goes, I'm just tired of the opposite going on: Alec being proclaimed as a saint while everyone else is called a horrible troll.

In other words, it's kind of a straw-man to say that anyone is blaming Alec for everything.

Also, ending any calmly written/even remotely logical post with "welp imma get trolled now lol" is kind of shitty.

Wait a second I didn't realize that this was the infamous Mike Hardy of youfailit fame. You should be fuckin' proud to have had this guy rip you off, he's practically a legend. 

Jesus, I hate how people act every IGF.

Yeah, it's really lame how someone will start a shitty topic and then people will actually respond with the tone set in the topic.  Also, see: "self-fulfilling prophesy," look at the "real" IGF thread, and quit being self-righteous douche.

@Xion, the problem with this is that as soon as people detail problems with the more zealous banning, a lot of proponents for more moderation seem to quickly shift to "oh it's not that bad, we'd just ban obvious assholes quicker." Which is basically how things work now... only maybe slower than what you're talking about? But that's not what the argument was about. Alec, for example, would've wanted specific people in his troll thread banned, or would've wanted certain people who called him names over it banned. (While asking that people look at his marvelous posting record before deciding to ban him for the same.) Others were arguing that any angry or disruptive posts should be met with day long bans or warnings or whatever. I don't think anyone really has much of a problem with what you're talking about, but that's not what anyone else seemed to be talking about.

How do you guys feel about the decompiler in general?

Using a decompiler is... kind of gross. I understand that some people use it to learn, but that's kind of stupid because most "programmers" for gm write shitty code. Also, I think that this is more often an excuse for code plagiarism than actual learning. Besides, if the dev doesn't want people copying his method (which could be argued as being petty and as hurting the field or whatever, I guuuueess), then that's the dev's business. Mods are another semi-valid reason, but, especially if it's a commercial GM game, sometimes the developer might not want mods around. And then there are the people who just want to steal it, like this douchebag. Of course, obfuscating the code is a way to deal with the first one. The second one is probably also dealt with by obfuscation, more or less.

The third one is the hardest one to stop, of course... A lot of people don't seem to mind stuff like that, just use a license that allows it, and don't worry about it. Plus, I kinda doubt he was making a lot of money from this, his website was pretty shit. For everyone else, though, just try to get the guy taken down (this guys website is gone now, as far as I can tell). I don't know if I'd worry about it, as far as going out of my way to prevent it, because for something like that if they have their mind set on it it's pretty much impossible to prevent (similar to piracy/cracked editions). All you can do is ignore it or try to get them dealt with on an individual basis.

You know what we still need to do? Beat Alien Swarm on Brutal. I can't understand why people just seemed to get completely bored of that game.

I never got bored I only had one level left on insane too. Cthulhu32 just works a lot and I don't remember who our fourth was

We've also played defcon and killing floor. Those weren't the only two games we play, just what we've been playing lately. We also played Red Faction Guerrilla a lot, which was hilarious. TF2 is another main one. AoE3 was one that we played a bit, along with AI War, which is awesome but hard to play with a ton of players and takes forever to finish. We've played SF4, SC2, and Civ4 a little bit. I have DoW 2 but I haven't played much, I think a few other people have it.

Wow thanks for all of the insightful posts guys.  

Amazing, would've been five topic-whiners in a row if Dragonmaw didn't pull a combo breaker.

Everyone, please don't let topic-whining derail the thread.  

I think I've already addressed everything you're saying.

The reason I'm pointing out that a lot of people think Alec-who-is-not-you was being an asshat is twofold: who is and isn't an asshat is completely subjective, and Alec is somewhat hypocritical for being so offended. They're arguing for moderation of vitriol, but some of the people arguing for this are themselves vitriolic or trollish. On top of that, I doubt people like, let's say, Phil Fish, would be banned over vitriol, despite how often he says extremely negative things about RinkuHero. (Some would argue that Rinku deserves it, that is, once again, SUBJECTIVE.)

Do remember that someone is more likely to be venting beyond their normal level of emphasis in a secret forum due to it being secret

This does not excuse such behaviour, but it should not necessarily be considered indicative of their normal behaviour

We now return you to your regularly scheduled drama

How high the Hangedman hangs above us mere plebes and dramaticians.

(I know it's not indicative of their normal behavior. Who cares. The point is that it's hidden, not that they're vitriolic. I hate when people ignore arguments because someone's angry (lol u angry i just call u angry and ignor points lol), so I try not to contribute to that.)

Also, I pretty much agree with Rinku on that 100%.

[...]

They were discussing who could be a mod, not who should be banned.

But why focus on facts when you can just stir shit up.

dum

basically in that thread we're discussing whether or not people should be temporarily banned for personal insults or disrespectful behavior more often, or whether that'd lead to more trouble than it's worth and be impossible to enforce fairly and lead to people who have things to contribute getting banned just because they lost their temper. and whether posts which are on-topic but also insulting should be removed or not from a thread. some of us think that'd be a good idea, others think it'd it'd be a bad idea.

alec/glaiel/chevyray/miroslav/others are for
allen/dragonmaw/me/moi/others are against

so we're not discussing who in particular to ban, just the rules by which people would in the future be banned

the only reason it's secret is cause derek posted the de-moderation notice there and the discussion branched off of that. we're not trying to keep it secret, as far as i know.

You both don't like the way I presented that, but neither of you even say it's about the same thing.

As far as banning based on personal behavior / insults goes, that's way too fucking subjective to ban on. Alec posted a thread that was basically purely to troll, and then bitched about how mean everyone was to him. You'd ban the people who bitched him out? Or you'd ban him for posting the troll thread? Notice how the opinion is divided in half on who is wrong here. Again, way too subjective to start banning people over this type of shit. Even if it wasn't subjective and the name calling was completely unprovoked, it's still incredibly dumb to ban people over that.

Notice how Alec presents everything. He'd ban allen for calling him a faggot, but he whines that people judge him based solely on one thread. So, what, long standing members get to call names and act like asshats but new members don't?

Well, then this is an even better example of why not to keep this stuff in a secret forum, as far as I'm concerned. The only way I'm going to hear about it is if someone from there tells me; it's not my fault that what I've heard is a biased version.  

INDIELEAKS BREAKING NEWS

IN RECENT NEWS, LEVEL 10 "ENDIE ILLITE" ARE DISCUSSING WHO SHOULD BE BANNED FOR HAVING OPINIONS CONTRARY TO THOSE OF THE YUKAZA.

[18:08] <@*********> "In summary, Dragonmaw doesn't look like someone as cool-headed as Melly and I'm unsure he is as much interested in keeping TIGSource relaxing place. He thinks that people who want a relaxing place are immature and he had a recent conflict with Adam which didn't end up well."
[18:09] <@*********> -miroslav malesevic

They were discussing who could be a mod, not who should be banned.

But why focus on facts when you can just stir shit up.

Well, I either take your word on it, or I take someone else's word on it. Why have it secret in the first place? Now all I'm going to get is biased, second hand opinions. Maybe I should've left out the commentary and just post quotes? Besides, the "yukaza indie elite" thing was pretty obviously a joke. Regardless, I think you're missing the point.  

Drama drama drama! All drama all the time.

I'm sick of this, I'm going back to the icycalm thread. At least we can have a civilized conversation there.

The people must know of what goes on behind their backs, regardless of drama!

The truth must be shown!

I believe that these leaks have not served to actually advance open democratic ideals, as they have mostly served to stir up discussion about the leaks as a source of controversy unto themselves rather than conveying information legitimately useful to transparency advocates

As I do not have level 10, I am unable to show quotes I was not given. If you find other interesting quotes, feel free to submit them. It is my opinion that a discussion among higher ups on who to ban and the revelation that mods were removing posts in the middle of threads are both interesting and worth posting about; of course I realize that not everyone shares my views, so I have no problem posting any other unrelated quotes I receive.

INDIELEAKS BREAKING NEWS

IN RECENT NEWS, LEVEL 10 "ENDIE ILLITE" ARE DISCUSSING WHO SHOULD BE BANNED FOR HAVING OPINIONS CONTRARY TO THOSE OF THE YUKAZA.

[18:08] <@*********> "In summary, Dragonmaw doesn't look like someone as cool-headed as Melly and I'm unsure he is as much interested in keeping TIGSource relaxing place. He thinks that people who want a relaxing place are immature and he had a recent conflict with Adam which didn't end up well."
[18:09] <@*********> -miroslav malesevic

THERE IS A RECENT RUMOR THAT ALEC HOLOWKA HAS REPORTEDLY LEFT TIGFORUMS BEHIND AFTER HIS REQUESTS FOR THE BANNING OF ALLEN AND OTHER ASSORTED MEMBERS OF THE TROLLOWKA THREAD WERE NOT MET:

"I guess its probably more fun to believe that I'm just a troll who wants to annoy people. Even if it flies in the face of almost everything else I've ever posted on this site, or my actions involving any of the projects that I've been working on in the last year. (Unity tutorials, Winnitron, Podcast are mainly about helping/promoting other indie game developers) If someone wants to get mad at me and use a couple posts as an excuse to judge my entire character, they certainly have the "right". I can't fight that. I could also imagine that you're a space cheese, and if I believe it hard enough, any fact you bring up won't counter that. Space cheese."

I can get how being a perfect role model human being would be better than one who makes jokes that confuse/offend people sometimes, but how come that seems to be evaluated to be equivalent behavior to those who focus on personally insulting people on a regular basis?

Here's how it seems to me: Angry people who have no interest in providing a positive contribution to the community, or rational basis for their arguments and personal attacks on others get to run wild and fling shit wherever they want with seemingly no consequences. (if I've missed something in this respect, please let me know)

ALEC HOLOWKA ALSO REPORTEDLY LEFT TIGIRC AFTER AN INCIDENT IN WHICH TIGIRC MEMBER ALLEN CALLED ALEC A "faggot" FOR STARTING THE TROLLOWKA INCIDENT.

IN UNRELATED NEWS, DEREK YU HAS RECENTLY STRIPPED MODERATORS OF THEIR POWERS AFTER AN INCIDENT INVOLVING THE REMOVAL OF POSTS FROM WITHIN THREADS:

"One of the mods has been removing posts from the middle of threads again. I've said more than once that this is unacceptable. I'm removing the global mods for now while I think about things a bit."

Quotes for indieleaks may be submitted to BlademasterBobo through PMs or email. BlademasterBobo may also be reached in #tigirc.

Quotes are presented as is, although some quotes from Alec Holowka were withheld due to repetitiveness. These may be revealed at a later time.

This post reserved for linking to quotes in later parts of the thread.

edit: After borrowing an account (I BORROWED IT AFTER I POSTED THE QUOTES BELOW SO DONT GET ON MY CASE ABOUT LEAVING OUT DATES OR THEM BEING BIASED OR WHATEVER) I saw minus world. It is 99% spam and about 1% stuff I'm talking about below, so odds are there won't be many more quotes.

Breadcultist, quit saying you're pissing everyone off because of your opinions. Nobody likes icycalm because he's a twat, not because of his opinions. You're not a complete asshole, so you're fine.  

allen just pretend they're made with unity 

bc2, and everything is pc. xbox is stupid to get online games going with.

I think part of where you're going wrong is thinking of the main prize as solely being Best Indie Game of the Year. MatthewW has said that it's more about games being more than the sum of their parts. In past years it wasn't even a scored category, while others were. You are also conflating quality/budget/length, but again, it's not even strictly a Best Game Ever award. The impression I get is that it's a bit more nebulous than that.

Should it be like this? I don't know, personally I think it works out. Games like Nidhogg should be able to compete with games like Amnesia, otherwise it'd just be Indie Game with Highest Budget (of the Year) Award. The main category is also essentially comparing apples with oranges and giving an award for whichever tastes the best, so there are going to be some interesting scenarios. Nidhogg is almost definitely more Fun than Amnesia, but I'm also positive that Amnesia has a much better atmosphere and is a much better horror game than Nidhogg is.

Saying that one is better than the other, unless you go strictly by budget / graphics / length / whatever, is impossible, however, because they are not the same type of game at all. Once again, this causes the main prize to be a bit nebulous, and its purpose cannot really be Best Game. That would be impossible, imo.

well, right now we is mostly fartron me eva and allen but anyone is free to join etc