I wonder what the average comfortable-seating upper bound is in most homes.

The way into this idea is probably through mobile integration. 3-4 people on the couch, 2 more wondering in and out contributing through their phones. Drop-in, drop-out.

I'm going to go back to the heart of the matter. I am playing Zenonia 4 on my Android right now, listening to a gaming podcast. It is a grind-heavy action-JRPG. Though the "J" may be slight....

The thing with completing quests is that I know what to do. Obviously when a game manipulates you into forming a destructive habit - the way a drug can - that's bad. So players should have fun in the minute-to-minute experience. But, I think this idea of games being oriented towards long-term play vs short-term is a product of the times. Eventually everything will have both. Look at RPG mechanics making their way into everything, poorly.

The essence of achieving depth in an experience - "engagement" - is in providing a stream of content that is somehow different from one moment to the next, but is somehow connected to itself in as many ways as possible. So if I want to engage in Go, or Poker, or Dark Souls, I need to feel the monotony stripped away. In all 3 of those games the attraction is in the depth of the experience. Serious poker players play for the love of the game, or the income. The short-term wins are just a target to hit, so that the depth of the experience might be unlocked.

Dark Souls leads you by the ear to challenges that paint a portrait of some world, with monster designs, and music. What you really want to do, as a player, is beat challenges. If those challenges were loosely arranged then Dark Souls would not be as much fun. Surely we want to get better, but the reason Chess is played not nearly as prolifically as it used to be is because its challenge curve is not easily approached. Dark Souls leads you around its system with its story, and leveling.

Even Mario presses your skills in new directions with each level. All of your moves were available from the beginning, mostly, but you weren't forced to use them until the progression forced you to. Being goal-oriented, even in life, is literally a way to force yourself to understand what you are currently doing. I pay more attention to my action skills in Mario because I want to be good enough to tackle the next world. Games should intricately link their short-term experiences with their long-term ones. There is always a best harmony between them.

There can be a thematic harmony between long-term and short-term too.

I see. I did not know these things. I know only a few WoW players.

Normally I define "grind" as something that happens without interesting choices along the way, for some long-term reward. I suppose there can be grinds and ultra-grinds.

Also, "interesting" is a subjective term here.

When I write code I used to be thoroughly the first one, but am slowly moving towards half-and-half.

Does it really? I can't tell if I'm being mocked.

I like rhythm stuff. I like it when the boss has "moods." If there is a pattern once you figure it out the boss becomes less interesting. The pattern-deduction phase is the most interesting, unless the combat itself is very deep (it often isn't).

So it slides into anger every so often and moves faster but reacts less swiftly to player behavior. If the player attacks when the boss is "shielded" that makes it agitated. Taking damage makes it afraid. Receiving no attacks makes it bored/cocky etc.

The reason I suggest this is because it slides in nicely with telegraph timing, which is what you are talking about. You have to nail the enemy weakness at the right time. If the pattern is just "2 enemy lunges, exploit weakness, repeat," then.... yeah.

edit: It's also a way to add complexity without adding a second finger.

But that's a very niche audience.

I think Cow Clicker disproves this. The whole casual explosion is basically "grinding for non gamers." The sense of progress is so prevalent, so necessary, so desired, that interesting mechanics can take a back seat to the sense of growth.

Though I realize you are talking about Grindy-grinds, like in WoW... oh wait.

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One of the reasons I like JRPGs - and RPGs in general - is the sense of "going somewhere." I want the game to tell me what to do, so I don't feel like I am wasting my time when I do do something. If I know there is something on the other side, that if I engage in a certain activity, become good at it, I won't be disappointed later on.

It's like if you get a degree, or take an apprenticeship, you want to know that your effort will lead somewhere. Obviously you want to enjoy your day-to-day tasks, but even more importantly than that, you want to know that your effort will mean something, that good or bad, in the end you won't regret exchanging your time for whatever the process gave you.

Yes, and the duck-slide.

All of that is true. Mario isn't a success from money alone. He really hits the nail on the head. I have never played a platformer series that changed how I saw games more than Mario did. And Mario, the character, suited his games perfectly. So much of what makes platforming a good genre (for consoles at least) is represented in the way Mario moves, how he controls.

Meat Boy is great, but he is no Mario.

Extra Credits actually said that "calculations" and choices are different things. Calculations can be fun. Just don't confuse them with choices. The skills trees in D2 and WoW are often calculations masquerading as choices, for example.

JW, I don't agree that usually you aren't "decked out." In Grandia II I felt powerful enough. Sure a lot of spells were useless, but a lot weren't, and I was certainly using progressively more as the game moved along.

I like leveling straight - just doing more damage ... but what I really like is acquiring more options.

tangent: "progression" and "opening up more options" are 2 separate things and imo one can't really replace the other.

Though, when they are one in the same that is when I find they are best.

Yes.

The trick is having the dialogue options being meaningful different, and having enough so that you can chop some away and have some left over that matter. Both of these things are doable I imagine.

To what JW said, about having crazy amounts of powers/spells at the end.... You have to get totally decked out in gear.  The acquisition of increasingly complex abilities is a necessity for JRPGs. You just have to balance them right. That's no easy task.

Haven't gone through it all yet.... One thing to add that isn't a "trope," but is a thing that I think is important... since we're talking about JRPG goods/bads now.

The main drive of an RPG is the story, and the main drive of a JRPG is a narrator-directed story.

I want the tension in the combat to match the tension in the narrative. If the protagonists are fighting for their lives, I want to fight for mine. If they aren't then I don't want to be.

When I run, duck, slide, I think that is hilarious. Then I play the level ducked. That's why Mario rules.

(no I know, I'm just playing along)

for real men

not all tea.

As a side note I picked up from Extra Credits, the mustache was actually a necessity in the coin-op days. It was the only way to differentiate between his nose and mouth in a low-pixel environment. Cool.

You're welcome, but I meant it more as an example of something you could relate to, because I love cameras. Your controls are what interest me.

But on that note, a great camera can do a lot of wonderful things.

I have messed up my body chemistry with coffee so many times. I could never quit... unless a doctor finally told me to, but I'm a lot more careful with my amounts now. 2 days on, 1 day off.

If i'm not sure whether i'm Human or not, do i still get a hug if i ask to ?

You'd be surprised, but the thread title actually means "hugs _by_ humans," not for them.

I've worked on a large number of non-gaming software projects. Here's a tip about complex software. You don't need to have a plan. Don't think that you need one.

If you can sketch out what you want on a piece of paper, and feel productive doing it, go ahead. Then start building. When you want to "change gears" and focus on something else, do so. The act of completing things that legitimately interest you - whether it is the process itself or the product - will give you "magic insight" into what you really want to do. Software is a very fumbly process. Good programmers just know how to pivot well. No one can predict the future.

Beyond that a routine is all you need. Focus on the things you care about.