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TIGSource ForumsDeveloperAudioSome shigi music
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Triplefox
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« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2010, 01:58:02 AM »

I kind of like this discussion. Not really the "is this music catchy enough" aspect, but the "what is creative songwriting?" angle.

Has anyone in this thread read the book "Songwriters on Songwriting?" That was a really good book, just a lot of interviews of pop song writers from the last 50+ years, letting you get inside their head a little. The old Tin Pan Alley types loudly proclaim that they just bang something out that's a small variation on something else they heard, while with the newer artists you get a sense that they don't want to admit it but they're doing that too.

I know that I definitely take a lot subconsciously from my influences. Haven't gotten to the point where I actively reuse everything I hear, though. But to me the enemy is "sounding dull and forgettable," and the solution is to set myself up so that I can't just reach over and do what I did last time. If I start sounding like a regular old genre piece, I can't stand it and close the file feeling defeated within seconds of trying to work on it again. (Repeat over days, until I throw away the song or force myself to rework it.)

But this also leads me into a process where I overwork micro-sections of every piece in an effort to make it a shining, unforgettable gem. Hence, choppiness - also cheesy and overpowering at times. And I have trouble writing in quantity. But also some very intricate production, since I work that in simultaneously. My very first works, when I was a pre-adolescent, were just masses of sound that splattered wrong notes everywhere. I've gotten a lot more controlled with time but the tendency remains...

I got a lot of positive feedback for my first "official" soundtrack work on Level Up!, at least. And that was within the constraints of 4-track MOD, which got really frustrating at times but is probably good for me and my overproduced ways.
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« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2010, 06:38:34 AM »

Music evolved in a large part through "borrowing", I don't see what's so terrible about it. Also, there's a huge difference between taking a small portion from a piece of music and using it in a different context and ripping off the whole thing.

Anyway, great music!
I already knew the Plants Vs. Zombies soundtrack, but the I like the Melolune tunes too. Sorry I can't provide any deep insight, but as Frank Zappa said: writing about music is like dancing about architecture.  Wink
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« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2010, 08:25:21 AM »

Jonathan, ever heard of something called "reading comprehension"? It does wonders when reading what other people write. With some reading capabilities, you might also notice that my nickname is indeed "Daiz" and not "Diaz", which you seem to mess up on a constant basis.

Now I'm just going to quote a few select parts from your wall of stupidity:
[...] Before you go telling her that her music isn't good enough [...] tell her she can't become a good and grown up composer unless she emulates your favorite composers [...]  "if you want to evolve as a composer you need to make your music more like this..." [...]

See, the thing is that never said any of that stuff. What I've actually said can be summed up better like this: Based on the sampling I've done from the available resources I've come to the conclusion that Laura's music seems a bit limited in terms of the types of music she can compose, therefore I think she should focus on certain types of music in order to improve her composing skills in these sectors in order to become a composer with more range in the types of music she can compose, thus evolving as a composer.

Read that sentence a couple times. I've never said anything like "you need to compose like this to be good" or anything of that nature because that would be incredibly stupid. I've also added multiple disclaimers about the limited sampling base that I've done and I've clearly mentioned what I base my opinions and feelings on in every case, yet you seem to fail when it comes to reading these from my posts and then call me on saying something that I've never said nor intended to say. Some points in case:

The biggest flaw in your feedback is that you haven't even played either of the games that this piece is written for.  In Plants vs. Zombies
Now let me just quote one other part of the chapter you quoted:
Quote
if it's really the music for The Ultimate Battle(tm) in whatever game it is, then it honestly doesn't feel like the music for such an event.

Notice that "if" there? Had you actually read the post you might have noticed that my comments were based on the implication that the name gives. Of course the song might not be intended for the implied purpose (as it turns out, whoop-de-doop, I TOTALLY did not take that into account right?), but at some point a composer might really have to compose for such a scenario. And for that case, this kind of song wouldn't really work. Which is why I mentioned it. WOW, HOW HARD TO UNDERSTAND, CLEARLY I WAS JUST SAYING "YOUR MUSIC SUCKS BECAUSE IT'S NOT LIKE THIS", HUH?

Based on some of the things Laura has written around here and on her website, I think she knows how to make the type of music you keep talking about.
And based on the sampling I've done from music I've heard here and on her website I got the impression that this might be an area where she could improve, and when I found something best fitting in this area I asked for more samples to determine the situation more accurately. No wait, obviously it can't be like that: I clearly presented everything I said as ultimate and universal facts that no-one can disagree on. Yep, I totally did that.

To repeat: I've never said she should compose specific type of music to be good. And I've clearly presented the conditions for "evolving as a composer" as "learning to compose more diverse kinds of music", which does not mean and has never meant that you have to stop doing something to do something else, it means learning the latter so that you can do both.

In my first post I mentioned multiple composers with very diverse range of music that they can compose. In my last post I brought up ZUN, who admittedly is more limited than quite many others I mentioned, because he is very talented in making epic and grandiose music. Again, I've never said anything like "you need to compose like ZUN to be a good composer", nor like any of the other composers that I listed. Though of course if Laura could do all the types of music as good as they can in addition to what she can do now, she'd be totally fucking amazing.

So to sum it up you're basically saying that I'm somehow insulting Laura with "ignorant" opinions. But at the same time, you indirectly described ZUN's, who is an indie composer as well, works using the sentence "Nothing was special about any of them" and then you went as far as to call them "generic jrpg tunes". You did this without explaining what makes you think of them as such, making these two baseless statements. Your sampling base for making these statements was even smaller than mine in case of Laura's music. And the way you praise Laura's work as smart and how you belittle the works of ZUN I linked you could say that you're basically saying "if this ZUN guy did like Laura did he would be good but because he doesn't he just makes generic jrpg tunes". You're basically doing the exact, not just almost, the exact thing you accuse me of doing. Because of this, I'm now going to call you a hypocrite, you hypocrite.

Next time you want to shit down someone's neck make sure you don't miss and slip on the shit you just took.

the only thing i have to say about yoko kanno is this:








i don't intend to link to these to bash that composer or anything, just that she was mentioned as something to aspire to here, so i thought those that didn't know about it at least deserve to know -- so personally i think supershigi is like ten times the composer kanno is
Being the one who brought Kanno up, I did know about these. I'm not going to defend her or anything, because frankly Kanno is probably the composer I least like out of the ones I listed. Of course there's still some amazing work that she has done, but there's quite a lot of stuff by her that I don't like, more than with the other composers that I listed. But then again she has done a lot of soundtracks, and obviously the more stuff you make the higher the amount of below average works will be, because nobody is perfect.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2010, 10:54:54 AM by Daiz » Logged
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« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2010, 03:48:43 PM »

Wow, a lot to respond to... please forgive me if I miss something.

@Jonathan: Thank-you for your comments, I'm really glad that you and your wife like my music.  It's always cool to read that girls are enjoying Plants vs. Zombies; George's mother for example had never played a video game in her life (save for solitaire), but she played PvZ from start to finish. 

@Paul: Aw, thank-you Paul.  I was not aware that there was such a wealth of similar pieces.  Although I can understand certain artists borrowing or being influenced by other musicians (as was probably the case in many of the songs featured in those youtube videos), I think you're right in that some of her works definitely cross the line.  In the 2nd video, the song which had lyrics (the singer says something like, "now here's the bongo drum... ") I couldn't believe she didn't even bother to change the lyrics... I remember when I first learned about this particular example I was really disappointed.  I felt a similar feeling when I saw a broadcast about how the Metal Gear theme was incredibly similar to a piece by a Russian composer.

@Daiz/Jonathan conversation: I'm not quite sure how to respond to all of this... I know that Daiz is just trying to be helpful, which I appreciate... but at the same time I admittedly share some of Jonathan's sentiments about the way things are being worded.  I did feel that lines such as this one were a little partronizing:

Quote from: Daiz
So ultimately I guess what I'm trying to say that your songs seem to lack pace and feeling of something epic. Obviously not all songs or soundtracks need to be like that, but if you want to evolve as a composer I think it's a subject you should focus on.

First of all, Ultimate Battle is used for the final level of each stage in Plants vs. Zombies... it's not supposed to feel the same as 3 warriors fighting against an all powerful evil force in order to save the world Tongue  The setting is on top of a suburban roof, or near a swimming pool... and you play as plants fighting against zombies... Where it's used in my game, it also fits quite well.  Additionally, I have composed a wide variety of tunes... the music I have on my website and here I've chosen specifically because it's the style I want to convey to people.  I'm not going to post every piece I've ever made, because I feel that the music I've posted is already fairly versatile... I don't have any trouble getting work and I think this is because I have a distinct style that people seem to find catchy.  Also, there are some tracks I'm not legally allowed to upload for various reasons.  But I assure you that I've had to write a wide variety of material for work, and I know how to build peaks to trigger emotions.  Of course I'm always learning; with each project I take on and each new song I write I believe that I learn... I also like to learn from analyzing music that I enjoy listening to.

The Tohou music you posted (which was supposed to be an example of an ear worm), I did not really find particularly catchy in and of itself; I'm sure it fits the game it was made for, but I don't remember it at all 5 minutes after closing the browser... in fact, a lot of the premade music that comes with rpg maker sounds a lot like his work, and I was specifically trying to move away from that when I composed for my game.  While I can see the merit in his compositions, that type of music is not what I aspire to write.  However, I do believe in learning from music I like, and taking on new challenges in order to evolve as a composer... I just don't really agree with a lot of the things you're saying.  I can see areas I need to improve in, and technically I feel that there are many composers who are like 100x better than me... but I don't think my music is flat or bland, and I don't think that I have trouble with pacing either.  I also don't believe that I should be focusing on some of the things you're telling me to focus on; I feel that I should focus on doing the best job I can to create music which matches the feel of the game it's being created for.  Many noteable folks in the world of game music will tell you to "find your voice (style)" and hone it so that it shines... I very much agree with this.  I do appreciate that you took the time to write so much and leave me your opinions and feedback... I don't believe that you meant to come off in a patronizing way or anything.

@Triplefox: I agree, the idea of what constitutes creative songwriting is very interesting to me... there are many artists that I've learned from, and I've noticed similar patterns between artists that I like.  I find it fascinating how certain relative chord progressions can produce certain emotions... I was just commenting the other day that the chord progression of C major to F minor (or any relative application) produces a very heart wrenching feeling, which is why it's so good for songs about longing... I noticed it a lot in the soundtrack for the movie "The Notebook"... and when I wrote the song "Traces" I had this melody naturally in my head when I had to say goodbye to people... so I think there's just something really natural about associating certain chords with certain feelings.  Sorry I'm getting a bit off topic!  On another note, I liked the music from Level Up, I thought it matched the game really well ^_^

@CAsinclair: Thank-you ^_^  Hehe, I like that quote, and I think it makes a lot of sense!  I've been meaning to ask for a while now... are you the person in your avatar?  That moustache is crazy cool!
« Last Edit: January 16, 2010, 04:41:21 PM by supershigi » Logged

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« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2010, 08:38:53 PM »

i saw that metal gear solid comparison too! was funny/weird. i suspect this is fairly common, because it's hard to catch, and even when it is, people make excuses for the people who do it, and nobody's ever punished for it if it's changed just enough that they can't be sued for it.

and it sort of detracts from all the work that composers who don't take entire melodies/etc. from other composers have to do -- the composer for my games ID and SD said something like that once to me, that things like this make him feel like, why even bother trying to compose original things if successful composers borrow so much from others.
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Triplefox
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« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2010, 09:34:45 PM »

To some extent I think the "why bother trying to be original" sentiment can be found in every creative medium:

Why bother trying to write an original story, I can just write "Star Wars" again
Why bother trying to learn to construct a figure, I can just trace over this pose
Why bother trying to write a game engine, I can just use Game Maker


And it comes down to your basic motivations: Are you just trying to hit a deadline and make some money? Do you want to explore the subject matter deeply? Do you think you can add something new to what's there? Is this part of the work the focus, or is it just used to service something else?

And depending on what you're trying to do, your skill level and your motivation, copying may be the better solution for everyone because it lets you reach the parts that you really wanted to be creative about, without getting bogged down in something you don't have an interest in right now. And maybe you need to do some copying to get your bearings on the subject and learn the core principles "outside-in," by seeing them in action and gradually realizing their meaning.

The best situation, creativity-wise, is when everything in a work is complementary to everything else, because then you have a reason to push the boundaries at all levels. It usually doesn't work out that way, though.

And I also think that a lot of people find themselves working with a creative medium, and gaining considerable technical skill, but without also learning how to actually do the deep explorations and boundary-pushing that drive the technical aspects. They get stuck working at a surface level, doing the same things over and over, always reliant on foundations they don't completely understand. Scott McCloud describes this phenomenon quite aptly in Understanding Comics.
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« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2010, 09:47:07 PM »

i think you're trying to rationalize an emotional reaction, i.e. looking too deeply into what was just a normal reaction of someone seeing someone do less work for more success. i'm sure he knows all of that consciously, but that doesn't prevent the subconscious reaction to seeing someone cheat and be rewarded for it.
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« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2010, 06:10:57 PM »


Why bother trying to write a game engine, I can just use Game Maker

I'm taking (fake) offense in this one  Hand Metal Right Mock Anger Hand Metal Left
We want to make game not game engine  Tongue By the way better game engine does not make better game, you are referring to the 6 path and the point is to organize idea around structure not the other way around... The problem is that it's generally more down to generic taste and culture rather than technical understanding!


By the way there is comparaison about konji kondo tune (mario and zelda) also... (deep purple i think, there is whole video comparison on internet) >> Found! http://kidicarus222.blogspot.com/2008/08/legend-of-purple.html

I think good musician and especially those with absolute hear just have a super memory that store any song they heard.

Actually i have an interview with Yokko Kanno saying she had a lot of trouble with her absolute ear because she will remember every piece of crap she hear, even puny elevator one in supermarket. She said she doesn't like to go out to much to avoid her head to explode with that because it automatically reason about any music and song that meet her ears.

I'm not a musician myself, but i di experiment and spit some happy crap, i have one uncle who is musician and i use to play around as a kid when he composed music... Many year later in one of my crap there was the exact serie of note he compose years before, i didn't notice at first but was confuse when i did  Crazy

I don't think we should be so quick to cry for rip off (only if it's Matrix Durr...?)

More fun with music similarities:
[skip the obvious or the vague part, especially from the same company/composer recycling]







http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eE5Ju3OSfSg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alZ7PQko_G8
(look at the related video side bar for even more fun)
Hell even Chrono trigger is not miss! OR ANY REFERENCE TOSS AROUND THIS POST! My Word! have fun or be upset  Wink Hail to the mecanical milker of the muses!

@Supershigi: you are a truly incredible composer and you certainly stand out, i think you people should pay you more so you can have even better equipment. If i have a minor suggestion it would be that the song are little bit to "comfortable" for my ears, i don't really know how to say it, but with more subtle contrast in the rhythm or whatever to create little twist that surprise my ears it'll be from great to unbelievable. But hey i'm no musician  Beer!
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« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2010, 07:44:25 PM »

"I don't think we should be so quick to cry for rip off"

what you describe may explain similarities in melodies and rhythm, but would not explain similarities in melody, rhythm, and instrumentation choice, and lyrics, all at the same time.

using the exact same lyrics (even if it weren't also combined with melody, rhythm, and instrumentation) can't be a coincidence, because a series of sentences are so idiosyncratic and limitless in possibility. you don't, for instance, find the exact same sequences of sentences independently in two novelists who didn't copy from each other. the chances of that happening are extremely vanishing.
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« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2010, 10:18:35 PM »

its war of the essay replies lol
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« Reply #30 on: January 18, 2010, 02:17:36 AM »

Feedback on music is pretty pointless when it's overly subjective. Smiley (in terms of "improving" things)

Some dude actually wrote a 40 minute audio critique of one of my songs. Most of it was "oh this part is okay" vs. "oh I don't like this part" and then him trying to sing better than the singer and failing. Pretty entertaining, but not helpful for improving my song writing ability. Tongue

Even advice from people who actually compose great music isn't all that useful, because they all have their own preferred style and methods. I certainly get inspired when I hear about different methods, and it's helpful to pick up technical tricks that make life easier. But in terms of figuring out a melody that carries a unique emotional "stamp" for a given situation, I'd say not a lot of that can be taught.
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« Reply #31 on: January 18, 2010, 03:13:47 AM »

But in terms of figuring out a melody that carries a unique emotional "stamp" for a given situation, I'd say not a lot of that can be taught.

That's so true!
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« Reply #32 on: January 18, 2010, 08:49:04 AM »

The thing is, music is probably the most taste-based art form of them all, and therefore the hardest to critique. I mean, just look at how ridiculously narrow a lot of peoples' music preferences are, compared to, say, the visual arts.
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« Reply #33 on: January 19, 2010, 09:22:45 PM »

@neoshaman: That's really interesting about Yoko Kanno and other musicians soaking up every song they hear.  I sort of have that problem too.  In fact, I have several songs/pieces that I want to do something with, but I never do because I'm afraid they might have come from somewhere else... like this one It's just a blues riff that I've been playing since I was a little kid in order to warm up my fingers... I don't know if I made it up, or if I got it from somewhere! 

@Paul: I definitely agree... there are some cases in music where there's a chance the similarities are just a coincidence, but there are also cases where you can pretty much prove one piece was ripped off of another (identical lyrics combined with relatively identical melody and chord progression is one example).  Furthermore, in court cases regarding stolen music, the cases that prevail are ones where the lyrics were copyrighted and then stolen word for word.  This is why I was disappointed when I heard the Kanno piece where the lyrics were identical... it's quite obvious this wasn't a coincidence.

@Alec: Yeah, I totally agree... I have trouble giving feedback on music for this reason.  Unless there's some glaring production problem, or the composer is going for one style but they're using conflicting elements it's tough to specifically critique music since it's so subjective.  Wow... someone gave you a 40 minute audio critique?  That's pretty crazy!

@CAsinclair: That reminds me... my friend's dad only listens to surf music and Buddy Holly... he probably has the most limited musical taste of anyone I know, haha...

Okay to change things up a bit, I'm going to link an old pop song I wrote several years ago.  It's called "Faster" and the lyrics are describing how I felt at that time in my life... I had just turned down a huge singing contract in Japan upon learning that my contract included doing a bunch of photobooks with material I wasn't comfortable with.  I realized that I loved music and wanted to pursue it, but I was really confused and sad because I'd just turned down what I thought was my big break... leading me to believe that I wasn't cut out for it.  I felt like I had all this energy and motivation, and if I didn't put it to good use I'd run out of time before finding my meaning or my purpose... anyways, that's what this song is about:

Faster
« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 09:30:41 PM by supershigi » Logged

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« Reply #34 on: January 20, 2010, 02:01:49 AM »

i like that, and i usually don't like pop music -- it's kinda amazing what production values one person can reach today with modern music software

maybe you'll do more good making music for indie games than you'd do as a jpop singer
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« Reply #35 on: January 20, 2010, 12:13:28 PM »

Okay to change things up a bit, I'm going to link an old pop song I wrote several years ago.  It's called "Faster" and the lyrics are describing how I felt at that time in my life... I had just turned down a huge singing contract in Japan upon learning that my contract included doing a bunch of photobooks with material I wasn't comfortable with.

I'm not into pop, but the song's pretty good. The fact that you were offered a contract that involved (I'm presuming) risqué photoshoots is rather crazy, though.

I really like Eclipse and Starlight. The Plants vs Zombies tunes are really fun.
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« Reply #36 on: January 20, 2010, 02:43:47 PM »

@neoshaman: That's really interesting about Yoko Kanno and other musicians soaking up every song they hear.  I sort of have that problem too.  In fact, I have several songs/pieces that I want to do something with, but I never do because I'm afraid they might have come from somewhere else... like this one It's just a blues riff that I've been playing since I was a little kid in order to warm up my fingers... I don't know if I made it up, or if I got it from somewhere! 
I can relate. It's happened to me several times before that I've realized a song of mine is really a song of someone else's, and it's really depressing. Happens to everyone, even George Harrison. But it doesn't happen very much anymore now that I stopped trying to write rock songs.

Not all of your music is really to my tastes, but I can say that I enjoy the sort of pseudo-classical vibe of those Plants vs. Zombies songs, and that blues riff made me smile. It doesn't sound familiar to me, but I don't really listen to blues that often. :D
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« Reply #37 on: January 20, 2010, 05:11:12 PM »

@Paul: Thank-you for saying that ^_^  I hope I can continue down this path... thus far I'm enjoying it very much.  I feel like I have a lot more freedom here to be creative, and I'm really thankful for that.

@agj: Thank-you Smiley I was really surprsied when some of my friends who are only into prog rock and metal told me they liked the song; they usually hate pop music.  Yeah, that's basically what was in the contract.  In Japan I think Eurasian people (especially ones who grew up in America) are kind of expected to be more "wild," so apparently they thought I'd be cool with it.  I felt really sad and naive, but at the very least, I think I learned a lot from that experience.  I'm glad you liked Eclipse and Starlight; I actually composed that in response to a picture my friend drew for me (which was based on a Carl Sagan quote).

@Jabberwock: Ah, yeah it sucks when that happens... especially if you get to the point where you're like, "man, this song is really good" and then you discover that it's just like another song >_<  What kind of music do you write nowadays?   
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« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2010, 05:43:10 PM »

The Brother Android links in my signature are links to my music. It's... I don't know. Low-fi electronica, I guess you'd call it. People seem to like it I guess.

Space Hymns is a sort of mini-album I made. The filesize is pretty tiny if you wanted to check it out. I can understand why a person wouldn't like it, though, so no pressure. And I don't mean to foul up your topic with shameless plugs, so I hope you don't mind.

On the note of accidentally writing other people's songs... the worst is when someone else has to point it out to you. Sad
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« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2010, 10:16:45 AM »

Kiss I love this!
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