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879027 Posts in 32954 Topics- by 24353 Members - Latest Member: kanki

May 23, 2013, 05:08:57 AM
TIGSource ForumsPlayerGamesIGF 2010 nominations
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Author Topic: IGF 2010 nominations  (Read 57462 times)
TheDustin
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« Reply #150 on: January 07, 2010, 04:41:24 PM »

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Actually, it's the good ideas, suggestions, and forward thinking that surface from the negativity that are the reason it improved this year. It's perfectly easy to come up with suggestions and improvements without the negativity and complaining, but some people don't know how. It's fine, though, the IGF folks surely know how to take a wee punch or two by now.

Some of the judges comments are rather amusingly... simple, though. Cheesy

Seeing those comments makes me want to inquire how to become an IGF judge, as these sort of critiques are my main contribution to the community and all. I'm not sure if I'm going to be in the country this time next year, but if I'm not in Thailand I'll definitely do this. I know that people like Michael Rose and our guys here know their stuff, but after seeing the ...simple comments I really want to elevate the level of discussion.
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Radix
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« Reply #151 on: January 07, 2010, 05:12:33 PM »

It's perfectly easy to come up with suggestions and improvements without the negativity and complaining, but some people don't know how.
Pretty easy to ignore unless people are bitching, too.

Just true in general.
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« Reply #152 on: January 07, 2010, 05:21:26 PM »

TheDustin: Just email Simon and tell him you are interested and what you have been doing (Play This Thing) in time for next year's IGF, and he'll likely let you help out. That's what I did, and my background is simply that I've tried to get our indie company running (and participated in IGF two years in a row... and not participating this year, obviously).
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ChevyRay
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« Reply #153 on: January 07, 2010, 05:30:45 PM »

It's perfectly easy to come up with suggestions and improvements without the negativity and complaining, but some people don't know how.
Pretty easy to ignore unless people are bitching, too.

Just true in general.

Haha that's probably very true for some people. I guess I'm one of those people that just can all too easily ignore complaining (maybe it comes from growing up with so many siblings? Wink)

Cheers
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Steve Swink
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« Reply #154 on: January 07, 2010, 06:28:44 PM »

It's perfectly easy to come up with suggestions and improvements without the negativity and complaining, but some people don't know how. It's fine, though, the IGF folks surely know how to take a wee punch or two by now.

Clearly, we take feedback to heart regardless how it's presented. Just because the tone is negative doesn't mean the point isn't valid. That said, it does make us really sad sometimes.

If you can, it'd be nice to receive feedback in a more positive and constructive format. Say what you think, don't pull punches, but come from a connected frame of mind. 'Here's how we should make the IGF better.' It's our festival, and it belongs to the participants as well as the organizers. It's not Us versus Them or You vs. IGF. Try to come from that perspective, as though the IGF was a project that you are personally responsible for. How would you phrase feedback in that case?

At the end of the day, that's why Simon, Matthew, and I do this stuff. It's for y'all, so you can have a sweet festival and award show, a showcase, and a way to get yourselves and your games out there. To help our peers, friends, and soon-to-be friends.


 Beer!
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Steve Swink
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« Reply #155 on: January 07, 2010, 06:47:57 PM »

Quote from: Steve
Clearly, we take feedback to heart regardless how it's presented. Just because the tone is negative doesn't mean the point isn't valid. That said, it does make us really sad sometimes.
Aw, don't be sad Steve, ^_^ You guys have been doing a great job!  I agree, constructive comments are always better than just flat out negativity whether the feedback is coming from judges or participants.  I like the perspective that the IGF is a project that everyone is responsible for and that we should all feel as though we are contributing a bit.

I think the only feedback I could offer after reading through the comments folks have posted here, is to encourage future judges to give the type of feedback they'd like to receive.  Most of the feedback I received was very helpful and encouraging, however I did feel as though one of the judges really didn't like my game's genre and as a result most of their feedback was just general comments about how bad rpg mechanics are.  So I would encourage judges to put aside their dislike of particular types of games, so that they could see the game for what it is and give relevant constructive criticism to help the developer. 

Thank-you for taking the time to read through everyone's comments and take them to heart.  It's obviously that you guys really care about this and I think that's really great.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2010, 06:55:23 PM by supershigi » Logged

Laura Shigihara | Composer and Game Designer
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« Reply #156 on: January 07, 2010, 06:54:48 PM »

Posting my feedback, and some comments about the feedback as well, as indirect suggestions on how they could be made better for next time.

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Hazard: The Journey Of Life scored best in:  Game Design

And scored worst in:  Audio

No surprises here. I've effectively done 0 work on Audio, though have things planned, so comments about the audio lacking are fine.

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This puzzle game seemed to require too much trial and error and not enough problem solving / real decision making.  Gameplay that requires you to turn up your gamma seems a little too early 90s.  I felt neither intrigue, enjoyment, nor satisfaction as a result of playing.  There was just nothing compelling here to me.  I don't think it is enough anymore to create a puzzle game for the sake of solving puzzles.  Games like Portal and Braid have raised the bar in this area.

There is no point in time where you actually have to turn up your gamma in this game. This is my fault, because I made mention of adjusting monitor brightness if you were having a hard time with a particular puzzle because it wasn't perfectly tuned yet and I wanted judges to be able to get through and see major content without frustration. On every single monitor I've ever played on, including CRT's with heavy sun glare, you're able to get through this part by looking closely for the walls. In fact, there were even people who didn't notice the actual solution, but were still able to get through with footstep sounds, which was perfectly fitting.

Still needs tuning, but this feedback (other than the trial and error comment, which I am fixing as I've heard it many times), doesn't really do a lot to help me improve the game. Hazard isn't a game where you are solving puzzles for the sake of solving puzzle at all, but even if it were, this comment sounds like it is trying to imply that solving a rubix cube needs to have a story. Sometimes puzzles for the sake of puzzles are a good thing, if executed well, so this definitely sounds like someone who hated puzzlers.

I appreciate that there are always things to work on, and getting negative feedback like this just means the game can be made more universal, but there could have been some more useful criticisms to make the feedback more worthwhile than it currently is. Braid and Portal weren't perfect when they were in development either, though I suppose it's only fair to a judge to assume the game is done. They get what they get I guess.

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A really enjoyable experience - clever concepts, well-done art, and a longform experimental title I can really get behind. Congratulations.

Thanks. But how can I make the game better? Is there nothing that you can suggest for me to change? Most feedback I've received whilst developing the game has been along these lines, but I need something more substantial to know where things can be made better. Was there anything that took you too long to solve? Were you frustrated by the game in many places? Does the audio need to change? Do you have any suggestions?

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A brave attempt to do something a bit different. While it doesn't really work as a "game", it's an interesting approach to an "art game", and thus I am nominating it for the Nuovo prize.

The philosophical signs weren't terribly insightful, but I did like the way they were related to the mechanics. Relating metaphors about life to actions in 3D space (well, 4D space, apparently) in many different novel ways within the one game is something I haven't seen before, so points for that.

The audio manages to be simultaneously minimalist and annoying - quite a feat, actually, though unfortunately not one I can give points for. :-)  While initially fine, the background music grated quite heavily on longer-term play; it was quite repetitive. I especially noticed this while repeatedly failing certain puzzles due to a lag-induced lack of control (climbing the stairs and jumping down into the blackness, from second gun's pathway; jumping with the upward platform's momentum, same pathway). Not sure if there are different audio tracks for different areas; if there are, it would explain why I didn't notice at other times.

Pretty much the only other audio of note is the gun sounds, which are annoyingly screechy.

It's possible the audio works better with the volume turned down. That would make this my mistake, but probably one that's common and therefore needing to be prevented. I'd suggest having a louder (and hopefully less repetitive) music track in the "lobby" area to cue people into turning their speakers down.

The minimalist art is wholly appropriate. The lack of texture caused some disorientation at times, and it couldn't be called spectacularly beautiful. However, it helps set the mood well, does its job, and then gets out of the way, which is more than can be said for a lot of indie games.

On a technical level: First up, it was pretty laggy (I played the standalone UDK version). My system meets the minimum CPU spec and exceeds the other recommended system requirements, but control was pretty difficult and my computer was serving dual purpose as a very effective space heater! (Pity it's summer here, so I didn't exactly appreciate it.)

There's no fundamental reason why it should be that laggy, so I'm going to go ahead and blame UDK. While Unreal is a very capable engine, it's also very heavyweight, and wasn't designed with dynamic geometry in mind. There's no reason such a graphically and mechanically simple game needs all the power of Unreal 3 behind it. A more lightweight engine would have sufficed and might have helped overcome the performance problems. I suspect a purpose-built engine would have done even better (but would of course have taken longer to create).

Overall this is an interesting entry which, while flawed, illustrates some interesting gameplay-as-art concepts and makes a useful contribution to advancing the "art games" field. I look forward to seeing more work along these lines from the author.

This is one of the most useful pieces of feedback I've received from someone when I wasn't there to take notes whilst they playtested the game. It quite clearly states that the audio that I threw in as a replacement for silence for the IGF clearly isn't working, and that a lot more work needs to be done with the audio for the final game.

There is, however, a fundamental reason why the game is laggy, which is that I produced a standalone version in one day when I was asked to submit one, as people couldn't judge the mod. That's fine. The game is remaining on the UDK, because I need the tools it provides in order to be productive, and actually runs very smoothly now. Live and learn, and my submission next year will be a completely finished and released game.

This third piece of feedback appears to be more along the lines of what others received, which is great as you're able to actually walk away with something substantial.
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Derek
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« Reply #157 on: January 07, 2010, 09:46:08 PM »

It seems like it's always a battle between people who think "best" means "most innovative" and people who think "best" means "most fun/most polished".  I'd like to see all of the above in the IGF, personally...

How about just increasing the number of Nuovo finalists to 10 and giving the best 3 (or something) of those Nuovo awards a chance to compete for the Grand Prize?
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« Reply #158 on: January 07, 2010, 09:53:26 PM »

So the Katakijin feedback is back, and man did one of them do his best to make me feel like shit.
Anyways I'm just going to talk about some of the feedback they gave me.
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Venge scored best in:  Visual Art

And scored worst in:  Game Design

That's odd. I thought I'd get Gameplay or something like that, not Visual Arts.

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Tutorial is lacking. Could have done with a difficulty setting. Need checkpoints. Very little enemy variety - too much combat with nondescript ninjas.

Enemy ninjas also take too many hits too kill. Sprites are also constantly blocked from the player's view by objects such as grass and fences, obscuring the action, animation and ninja moves. Not too fond of the backtracking either.

The game should probably be designed with players of all skill levels in mind. Also encountered a crash bug after loading game.

I agree with this for the most part. I ended up realizing all that he said too. The only part I didn't argree with is "the game should probably be designed with players of all skill levels in mind." I don't think so. You don't play IWTBTG and complain about difficulty. You become better at it, and that is part of the game itself. It's the same thing with games like Ninja Gaiden.
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+Good rock music
+Nice, but simple graphics
+Plenty of nice polish and flair within the simple graphics
-Wall climbing is a little difficult to understand (why/what makes him jump around so much)
-Opening enemies repeated too much.
-Big slash not as useful (so it seems) as little slash.

Well not much to say here. The game was incomplete so this makes sense.

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overall, a decent execution of an age old concept.  the tutorial was not very helpful in figuring out how to play the game, i got stuck not knowing how to climb the wall (figured out in-game later on).  also, not having instructions on which keys do what is a major impediment for getting into the game.

I guess he skipped the tutorial. Maybe I should make it mandatory. Figured it out though it seems. Not much here either.

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I found the controls so terrible as to be unplayable. Before submitting to a design competition like the IGF, I strongly encourage the developer to consider what contribution to the industry they are attempting to make. If the way you describe your game is "it's just like these other games," then it is not an appropriate submission. If you're going to put all of this time and energy into making a game, for the love of games, do something original.

What the fuck? Who is this guy? He practically had nothing constructive to say about my game other than bitch about originality. Yes it's unoriginal, so what? Not everybody is trying to revolutionize the industry you prick. Some of these judges need to learn how to enjoy games.

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Crashed on close twice including one hard crash requiring a reboot.  Who knows.  Could be any number of things.

Metallic sounds might be a bit harsh for menus.  I like the other sounds attached.

The intro level is wayyyyy too difficult.  It's okay for someone who's already played this kind of a game --maybe-- but novices would quit in frustration.

Nice straightforward design with nifty flourishes.  Level design is good if a bit blocked out looking.  The tasty and tasteful art helps much here but why all the occluding fences?

Control of the character is okay.  Using powers and abilities is intuitive.  This works the way it's supposed to.

This isn't an original concept of course, then again, looking at Venge --which is a fun name, btw, maybe everyone should make at least one of these.  Much to be learned here and food for thought.

Good feedback here. Need to work on those bugs.

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I like this style of game, but feel this one is missing out on a few key things.

Controls - By having four keys in a row with different functions, I found it easy to get confused, often jumping when I wanted to attack. Consider moving the jump to the (somewhat) more standard spacebar.

Feedback - Consider including the interaction key with the "interact" prompt so I don't have to randomly try keys to find out what it is - in general, if you can include the key on-screen without breaking your immersion, it's preferable.

Level Design - the goals were not very clearly indicated through visuals or instruction - most of the first tutorial level was the same color. Consider picking out the player's goals in a different color. Additionally, consider highlighting the interact points more clearly.

Training - The tutorial for combat was a huge list of information - different keys, moves, magic, etc - too much to learn without being able to put it into practice. Consider splitting this stuff up into stages v.s. specially-tailored enemies against which each attack is worth using, and require the player to use each ability to progress. (you do this well with the movement tutorials).

Combat - In general, I didn't get to see why I needed so many different attack variants - I could just spam the X key and usually win. With no health-bars on enemies, they need to very clearly show their health status in some other visual way. Consider whether the control complexity/combat system is necessary.

Very good feedback. I honestly don't know how to tackle this control problem. I had my friend play the game and he was also complaining that there were too many buttons. I can't help but feel that it's something players are just gonna have to get used to. Gave me lots to think about though.
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Excellent chunky 2D combat system stuck in an otherwise somewhat tepid platformer -- it's about 60% of a finished and amazing game that has more to do between points A and B.

Yeah, the platforming isn't the point of this game. I'm glad he/she thought so highly of the combat system which really is the star of the show.
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The visual style is very nice in some places (the cherry blossoms in the background, the lighting effects)... but it's a bit uneven.  For example, the title screens are rough by comparison, as are the character sprites (the animations are nice, but the character design is odd... very chunky).

Sword fighting was a bit sluggish, at least on my computer, so it essentially turned into random button mashing.  I also found that I could simply jump over the enemies to get past them (until the point in the game where "barriers" appear and block your path until you defeat the 4 boss enemies).

The rock soundtrack was a bit heavy-handed.  Maybe Japanese windchimes instead...

Why can't the guy run with his swords out?  The transition between modes (from running to fighting) was a hurdle.

I don't really understand what he meant by transitioning being a hurdle. You literally walk up to an enemy and fight. That's how it is in these type of game. I don't know. But other than that, what he said was expected.
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Overall, pretty good feedback I think for a rushed demo. Full game should be out this year and I'll take into account all the feedback I've gotten. Hopefully I get further next year...and that one asshole of a judge is off the panel.
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« Reply #159 on: January 07, 2010, 10:01:36 PM »

http://www.pigscene.com/?p=397

the 12th annual independent games festival
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Bennett
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« Reply #160 on: January 07, 2010, 10:15:16 PM »

Clearly, we take feedback to heart regardless how it's presented. Just because the tone is negative doesn't mean the point isn't valid. That said, it does make us really sad sometimes.

I hope you're attending to the fact that most of the vitriol going around is aimed at the judges' feedback, and not at the IGF as an entity or at the three of you who do most of the organizing.

You really raised the bar this year in terms of making the judging process transparent; it so happens that this transparency has revealed that the judging process is flawed.

This is good! It means that the transparency was needed, so you are to be congratulated for going to such great lengths to provide it.

The thing is, if you're going to keep this level of transparency (and I hope you do) while also maintaining the credibility of the IGF prizes as awards which recognize the best indie games (which I hope you will), some changes are probably required for next year. You need to think about what kind of voting structures will guarantee that the winners and losers are not divided by an opinion which runs something like "too many pixel games LOL".
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« Reply #161 on: January 07, 2010, 10:24:30 PM »

dessgeega wrote an interesting article about what she thinks is wrong with the igf here:

http://www.auntiepixelante.com/?p=525

i don't know if this was mentioned in this thread yet or not (possible, there are a lot of pages)
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« Reply #162 on: January 07, 2010, 10:28:24 PM »

it so happens that this transparency has revealed that the judging process is flawed.

I wouldn't even go this far. It's possible the democratic process could be the problem but I think there will always be issues with any system. If the whole thing was nuovo/juried then you'd have people complaining about elitism/crowd favorite and "trendiness" whether it be warranted or not. Perhaps it's just a matter of drawing from a shallow pool (mainstream game developers).
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« Reply #163 on: January 07, 2010, 10:43:45 PM »

i don't think the issue is that it's a "democracy", but rather that it's random. as podunkian put it, "Judging a book by its cover is stupid, but judging a book by assigning each of its pages randomly to people is >>fucking<< (language alert) dumb."

imagine a democracy where you could only vote for a random subset of the people running for office.

also, a democracy would be that anyone can be a judge and vote on games, not a set of 150 people. that wouldn't be better because it'd then become a popularity contest, but that's what a democracy would be in regards to a judging process.
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« Reply #164 on: January 07, 2010, 10:54:26 PM »

dessgeega wrote an interesting article about what she thinks is wrong with the igf here:

http://www.auntiepixelante.com/?p=525

i don't know if this was mentioned in this thread yet or not (possible, there are a lot of pages)

Interesting read, but I don't really like how she uses her position to judge the festival more then judging the entries.
But I do agree with dropping the outdated GamePro/IGN ranking criteria, though I think that should be dropped in mainstream game reviews as well, but I worry for those when they still come up with stingers like "Read on as we review Bayonetta. Bring a spare pair of underpants."

Also disregarding a game because it shares similarities to a prior game is really getting on my nerves, I thought we were passed that when FPS games stopped being called Doom clones. It's a short cut for a lazy dismissal.

I have big love for the IGF though, It's one of the classiest awards shows games does.

« Last Edit: January 07, 2010, 11:09:24 PM by Eric McQuiggan » Logged

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