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[Neo1493]

Are you really suprised that prop 8 passed people voted for it the first time and won then the 4 judges shot it down then it came back and won again. By the way Iam for prop 8 mostly cuz I was scared by a gay at a young age.

[Corpus]

That isn't even a reason.

I was scared by a straight man at a young age, but I'm not going to vote to abolish marriage between a man and a woman any time soon.

[dither]

Heh. That was not an awfully serious statement. It was just that "innate in the human psyche" sounded like bullshit to me, so I wanted to use it too But at least that one explains people robbing other people in addition to people not liking to be robbed.

Haha. Well, the way I phrased it is probably not scientifically accurate, but I wouldn't quite say the sentiment is bullshit. I mean, it seems like anywhere people co-exist, slavery and expropriation are looked upon negatively by those on the receiving end. Even if you found some primitive tribe that was cut off from the rest of the world, I'm sure they wouldn't appreciate you marching right in and taking their food, or forcing them to build a pyramid for you.

So, dealing with people, it'd be all right to, say, create a government? And I think this was brought up by someone earlier. But like, unless it's magical system where robbers can't exist, it seems you can just as well say that we already live in such a system. It's just not working very well. Turns out robbers take control.

I was trying to say that just because the robbers take control, doesn't negate the fact that people create property, and desire to keep the fruits of their labors, and to pursue their own happiness.

Of course, we all have free will, and some people will use their free will to deny others the fruits of their labors. I think that's pretty rotten, even when it's called "government".

And, again, we didn't create the government. That's civics-textbook propaganda. Did you sign a contract? The signatories to the ratification of the U.S. Constitution didn't have some divine authority over us, or anyone but themselves. And even then, it's not like they were agreeing to take personal responsibility for anything the government would actually do. Who is personally responsible, in a legal sense, when the government commits some injustice? It's not a legitimate contract. It's just an abstraction for people to hide behind when they want to plunder or enslave or kill others.

Yes, that would be upsetting. Now maybe if we had some sort of rules concerning dealing with other people...

You can only rule over yourself. I mean, experience has proven that laws and governments don't work. There is no "rule of law", only rule of men. In a real sense, this is anarchy. The government starts a war of aggression that results in hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of deaths, and nobody is held accountable by the "system". Where are these rules governing how we deal with other people?

It's not necessarily the other guy's fault though. You're likely to get upset if you give someone a back rub on the understanding that you're going to get a haircut and that understanding is unfounded.

I thought it was implicit that there was some kind of verbal agreement, if not a written contract. Absent either of those, yes, you couldn't expect anything in return.

[Derek]

One of the (many) sad things about Prop 8 passing was that a large majority of African Americans voted for it.

[Valter]

The really shitty thing is that it doesn't even just ban gay marriages in California, it dissolves any marriages that happened while it was legal. Guess it's time to move to Boston?

I'm not gay, but I'm not going to start telling gay people how they should live their lives. I had figured that America was the home of the free, not the Xenophobes.

[moi]

One of the (many) sad things about Prop 8 passing was that a large majority of African Americans voted for it.

This comment is a bit racist, african americans are allowed to have various opinions.
even though they know how it feels to be in a minority, doesn't make them forced to vote all like one man.

[Zest]

That makes a sad heterosexual panda. I'm also not gay, but saying that they don't have a right to marry is a direct violation of human rights.

[Gnarf]

Shit! You guys are straight!? I've no idea why you're saying that right now! High five!

By the way Iam for prop 8 mostly cuz I was scared by a gay at a young age.

Hahahaha. Are you by any chance not homophobic, just afraid of gays?



And I'll quote, uh, this bit:

You can only rule over yourself. I mean, experience has proven that laws and governments don't work. There is no "rule of law", only rule of men. In a real sense, this is anarchy. The government starts a war of aggression that results in hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of deaths, and nobody is held accountable by the "system". Where are these rules governing how we deal with other people?

There. And I'll try to be super-to-the-point. I agree that there are no "real" rules and so on. The government's rules is the government's rules enforced by the government through the use of violence.

What I don't get is this: Are you suggesting, as an alternative, to have no government and no rules? Because the government is, uh, wrong (breaking the rules?)? If so, could not governments and such exist within that system, since everyone would be following their own rules? (and, you know, if we're going by what experience "proves", we do seem to end up with governments most of the time)

Or are you just saying that a lot of things are kind of bad these days and it'd nicer if things were nice or something? : |

[Derek]

One of the (many) sad things about Prop 8 passing was that a large majority of African Americans voted for it.

This comment is a bit racist, african americans are allowed to have various opinions.
even though they know how it feels to be in a minority, doesn't make them forced to vote all like one man.

I should clarify... it's sad to me that while most African Americans were helping to vote in the United States' first black president, a large majority of them (in California) were simultaneously voting to take away the rights of gays.  With plenty of other people of different colors, of course.  I just thought it was kind of tragic, in an ironic way.

But I think I see what you're saying, so I'll step back and say it was generally just a sad result.  With the economy going badly, and the war still going on, I can't understand why anyone would care what other human being a human being wanted to marry.

[Zaphos]

From rinku's blog: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HpTBF6EfxY

[Valter]

So, I've planned out the rest of the timeline of the universe.

2008: Barack Obama is president-elect.

2008-2010: Obama sets about with fixing the economy, foreign relations, and everything else.

2011: America is a utopia, world peace has been declared, and all nuclear weapons have been banned.

2012: Americans are satisfied with life, want something new to mix things up, decide to elect Palin as President.

2012: Mayan end of the universe arrives on schedule..

[dither]

What I don't get is this: Are you suggesting, as an alternative, to have no government and no rules? Because the government is, uh, wrong (breaking the rules?)? If so, could not governments and such exist within that system, since everyone would be following their own rules? (and, you know, if we're going by what experience "proves", we do seem to end up with governments most of the time)

Or are you just saying that a lot of things are kind of bad these days and it'd nicer if things were nice or something? : |

This is probably not what you were looking for, but here it is: I don't see the point of proposing alternative "systems" for ordering society. It's not like the people who have power right now are going to give it up once they hear a better idea. And I don't believe this is the right approach, because the means must be consistent with the ends desired.

Instead of a top-down solution, I believe in changing oneself as the only way to have a positive impact. As I said earlier, even if you have to follow the state's rules (to the extent you can do so without violating your own conscience) to avoid being hurt or killed, you can still withdraw your consent. You can see it for what it is. You can refuse to do the state's work.

How many people did Hitler kill, personally, as German Chancellor? None, is my guess. And yet we say that Hitler had great "power". Of course, his power derived from the willingness of others to give their minds and bodies over to his purposes. Ditto for Clinton, Bush and, soon enough, Obama.

All of us have power. How you affect society depends on which power you use. Stop being a part of the problem (not saying you are, but in general). If you want a society where force isn't the rule, then reject force, whole heart, whole mind. That is power, too. You can't expect anything to change if you won't even change your mind.

Ever heard the saying, "What if they had a war and no one came?" That's the idea, but take it even further. What if they had an election and no one voted? What if the president gave a speech and no one listened?

I won't kill for the state, I won't endorse it by voting, and I won't genuflect before the elected Caesar. That's my plan, for starters. Care to join?

[moi]

So, I've planned out the rest of the timeline of the universe.

2008: Barack Obama is president-elect.

2008-2010: Obama sets about with fixing the economy, foreign relations, and everything else.

2011: America is a utopia, world peace has been declared, and all nuclear weapons have been banned.

2012: Americans are satisfied with life, want something new to mix things up, decide to elect Palin as President.

2012: Mayan end of the universe arrives on schedule..

2013 LORD HUMONGOUS

[neon]

Ever heard the saying, "What if they had a war and no one came?" That's the idea, but take it even further. What if they had an election and no one voted? What if the president gave a speech and no one listened?

what if, what if.  this isn't going to happen.

I won't kill for the state, I won't endorse it by voting, and I won't genuflect before the elected Caesar. That's my plan, for starters. Care to join?

yeah!!  everyone who wants to have absolutely no influence on the state's policies, sign up here!  everyone who wants to accomplish absolutely nothing, registration is free! 

when you don't vote, here's the thing:  no one cares.  everyone else will still vote.  we will not change the government in a tumultuous revolution of apathy.  you do not accomplish anything by not voting, wheras when you vote, at least you can pick the lesser of two evils.  at least there is one candidate that you like more than the other, even if it's by an infinitesimal amount. 

here's the thing - government is necessary.  anarchy would play out like this.

1) realization that there's no government
2) mad dash for food and weapons
3) war
4) being cut off from the rest of the world
5) famine, poverty, disease, etc.
6) 

there is no way in which people can govern themselves without a system of basic rights and regulations set up and enforced.  this is why we have governments.  our only problem right now is that the government doesn't have to answer to anyone.  the citizenry doesn't hold the power with which to create checks and balances with the government.  with an organized group of people, there could be balance between the people and the government, and needs could be met. 


also, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law) the hitler reference was in poor taste.

[Rory]

Voting is compulsory in Australia. Americans are impressed if they get 65% of people voting. We consistently get 98-99% of the population voting. Maybe Al Gore would have been president instead of Bush. Maybe America would already be a Utopia. Maybe there would be no war in Iraq. Maybe the economy would be in good shape. Yeah.

So, I've planned out the rest of the timeline of the universe.

2008: Barack Obama is president-elect.

2008-2010: Obama sets about with fixing the economy, foreign relations, and everything else.

2011: America is a utopia, world peace has been declared, and all nuclear weapons have been banned.

2012: Americans are satisfied with life, want something new to mix things up, decide to elect Palin as President.

2012: Mayan end of the universe arrives on schedule..

:D