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[Droqen]

I have attempted to learn kana, and succeeded, but I failed when it came to learning actual kanji.

I will also keep an eye on this, even though I have not yet played it -- once I have played it I will also tell you how it went for me D:


edit : I feel like the game is too hard ;_; and once you're losing enough, there's really nothing you can do but start all over again ]: (it is fun though)

[jotapeh]

[You said you would not be so interested in playing the game with the current movement system, but would you be interested in studying Kanji if it were also a bit of dungeon crawler as well? That's how I see it. The repetition is necessary. The #1 goal of this game was for me to learn and then practice Kanji. I need LOTS of practice, since you have to move lots, this fit really well. Also, since there are times when speed of movement is important, I think it might improve response time. Did I sell it?

I see your point - in part because I thought of that very thing myself. After quite a bit of thought here's why it doesn't really work in my mind:

- Rewards encourage learning. Movement of one square is a pretty crappy reward. This feels more like punishment... and I am atoning by typing for each single step.
- You will lose players due to frustration with this mechanic. Frustration = less learning = game misses the objective
- If I die, or restart after closing the game, I have to walk back to where I was before. And type millions of letters. More frustration...

You've got 19 levels so far ... let me explore them! How about this - for squares where speed of movement is necessary to avoid damage, trigger the kanji entry for movement. Otherwise, let me walk freely.

Alright, enough of my thoughts on that

I could put a warning about the electric floors in the instructions, but my guess is people don't read those first anyway. If they didn't get it at first, they would learn fast like you did. Would a zapping sound effect when it went off help? It's already pretty close to how Gauntlet did it. How bout if they flashed shades of blue and not just white? What do you think?

Potentially - something that makes it look less 'glitchy' and more like a real effect. If you could even get a small sprite of broken wires that spark, or similar...

I know Gauntlet was a classic, and good on you for modelling after it - but these days people do expect clearer visual cues. Especially when the rest of the game feels so nice and consistent, that flashing square really looks odd in its current incarnation.

Good old Slime Forest, I like to think we can coexist . As far as I remember, you type in the english translations for kanji in that game. Different niche.

There are different versions, I played the basic one to learn simple hiragana and katakana, but that's neither here nor there I think your game stands well on its own and is actually much nicer than Slime Forest.

[Droqen]

- Rewards encourage learning. Movement of one square is a pretty crappy reward. This feels more like punishment... and I am atoning by typing for each single step.

You've got 19 levels so far ... let me explore them! How about this - for squares where speed of movement is necessary to avoid damage, trigger the kanji entry for movement. Otherwise, let me walk freely.

I don't like this! No no no :[
Really, the point of this is to make you learn things;
Without needing to type something for every step (as tough as it can be in dangerous situations), there would be far less learning going on.
Also, a system that only required kanji entry sometimes would be rather annoying, I think, and would really ruin the sense of unity the control system of this game has.

---

I'm a big supporter of randomly-generated content and... for this it's no different. I feel like this game would be suited to it, building up your vocabulary even every time you die for good and start over. Because right now, once you hit a level you can't beat any more, you're stuck. And if you start over, you have to start from scratch (I think).

Oh okay you can just restart quest. Yay! The way it is now seems fairly fine, then ^^

---

Back to type-for-movement: I think it's important.

It might be a little less frustrating if some of the areas were more densely populated or just smaller, but... I don't think it needs it that badly. I came for practice, and the game is giving it to me! :]

EDIT :: Voice recognition would be kind of awesome, since what I really came to learn is japanese -- not typing -- but that's probably not very possible and it would suck and I'm a good enough typist to handle this anyway ^^

---

EDIT AGAIN.

What if you made the kana/kanji display even while you're moving?

The one you just typed might move to the middle, in a different colour, but it would really help if I could see how to make my next move without having to wait for the current one to finish (even if it doesn't allow me to type until my action is complete)

---

It seems I am editing too much. After getting just a little better, things seem much more possible now. I feel like I am really fortifying my learning of the kana I already sort of knew but not well, though the kanji now seem introduced very very slowly. This game is a lot of fun >_> and I still thing typing to move is important. When you're just moving around, it's a calm break between combat -- but it shouldn't be a break in the learning. That's what I think, anyway. Great job on the game :3

[jakten]

Haha sorry, as I progressed through the game I noticed there actually was Kanji in there, I'd thought it was only kana. That makes it even better! I think Kanji dungeon is a good name now that I've seen that there is Kanji in it.

This game is really exciting though I can't wait to see it completed 

[Droqen]

I'm afraid of playing this too much because I don't want to be screwed if I lose my progress D:

Do you think you might add some way to customize your starting state, or what to include? (I understand it's still a work in progress!) Some people might have a basic grasp of, say, 20 different kanji and playing this game enough to unlock past those first 20 might just be painful for them. On the same note, someone losing their progress for whatever reason will be rather displeased.

[homeDrone]

So I have added a few features I think address some of the issues you have had.

1) I made an option for PICK UPs. You can set it to be MANUAL, AUTO, or as I called it PRIORITY.  MANUAL is as now. AUTO picks things up just by moving onto the square. And my favorite , PRIORITY, sets the special action automatically to the PICK UP icon. So you don't have to use shift to get to it every time. You can turn it back to manual if you find a situation where timing is important and you don't want it to auto set the pick up icon.

2) I added training wheel hints to new characters you get. So the first 5 times the character appears in the special action box, the English will appear above it. This can be toggled on or off.  This is both a great idea I got from you guys to help the learning process, and confirms with me that it would be a bad idea if it were permanent. I notice I stopped looking at even the Kanji I knew in favor of reading it off the English. It was like English subtitles on an English movie. For some reason, I can't stop reading them. 

3) I removed the blanket references to everything as Kanji. I use the word "character" now in most places and it was a really simple easy fix. So much so in fact, I dunno why I didn't just do it that way to begin with. It's much better this way. Thanks for making me do that.

I have not updated the flash on the site with the new changes yet. There are some more things I want to do before that. But these changes are coming.

Oh, an issue people were having is the boxes crowding their view. I had anticipated that, so I built in the TAB feature. Just hold down TAB and the HUD hides. That's in the current version.

edit : I feel like the game is too hard ;_; and once you're losing enough, there's really nothing you can do but start all over again ]: (it is fun though)

This is a concern of mine that I made the levels too hard. I can finish every level, but I know all the secrets and things that can get me through them easier, and even then it's tough sometimes. When I improve my level editor, I should probably spend a lot of time evening some things out.

- Rewards encourage learning. Movement of one square is a pretty crappy reward. This feels more like punishment... and I am atoning by typing for each single step.
- You will lose players due to frustration with this mechanic. Frustration = less learning = game misses the objective

What I'm getting from a lot of people so far, is that they don't want to play the game this way. A lot of excellent alternate suggestions have been made. Unfortunately, this is the way I want to play the game. I don't find it frustrating. The reward system for me is every time I get one right, I go where I want. When I get one wrong, I don't go where I want. I find this a nice reward system. Most times, mistakes don't mean anything. Plus I am getting the amount of practice I intended as well. It's unfortunate this limits the appeal of my game, but ultimately, I am my primary market Though I'm sure this system can be improved yet. I hope I don't sound ungrateful of everyone's input.

Part of the lack of frustration for me is probably that I know all the secrets of all the maps. It's not an exploration game for me. I can see how people are feeling claustrophobic right now. I wonder if a minimap feature would help. Basically, show the entire layout of the dungeon level. Where the exit is and so on.

While on this note..

- It's WAY TOO slow. I suggest you make the movement based on a much more generous grid, say, 3 x 3 tiles. Maybe take inspiration in Riviera (the RPG).

Honestly, I'm not sure what you mean by the 3x3 grid. I get the impression you are suggesting something like Sparky's Tiny Crawl entry for the assembly competition. Am I correct?

- Kanji have several readings, so it's confusing how you want me to write them.

I'm still sorting this issue out. Generally, they have one reading when they are by themselves (often the onyomi) and another when they are grouped together (often the kunyomi). So at the moment, you enter the kanji's onyomi. But as I think you probably know, it's not always the case that you just use the onyomi when they are single. Or that there is only one onyomi. Also, by adding in compound words, the number of items to be learned jumps up a lot. I'm already concerned about how long I'd need to make the game just to encompass my 300 kanji goal. It's a WIP.

I'm a big supporter of randomly-generated content

I would like to make a level generator. But it's a coding puzzle bigger than I want to get into right now. It's on my wish list though.

EDIT :: Voice recognition would be kind of awesome, since what I really came to learn is japanese -- not typing -- but that's probably not very possible and it would suck and I'm a good enough typist to handle this anyway ^^

Also on the wish list.. at the top.

What if you made the kana/kanji display even while you're moving?

I am experimenting with this now. Instead of hiding all the other characters, I will make the selected one gold or something. See how it works.

I'm afraid of playing this too much because I don't want to be screwed if I lose my progress D:

Do you think you might add some way to customize your starting state, or what to include? (I understand it's still a work in progress!) Some people might have a basic grasp of, say, 20 different kanji and playing this game enough to unlock past those first 20 might just be painful for them. On the same note, someone losing their progress for whatever reason will be rather displeased.

You have given me a very good idea. Instead of the START LVL option I have now, I will try to make some kind of slide bar of all the characters, you just select the exact level you want to start at.

[agj]

- It's WAY TOO slow. I suggest you make the movement based on a much more generous grid, say, 3 x 3 tiles. Maybe take inspiration in Riviera (the RPG).

Honestly, I'm not sure what you mean by the 3x3 grid. I get the impression you are suggesting something like Sparky's Tiny Crawl entry for the assembly competition. Am I correct?

Yes, that's what I meant by Riviera-style. But by 3x3 tiles I meant that each step moves you a distance of three tiles, rather than one; of course, the level layout and the enemy patterns would have to accomodate this.

- Kanji have several readings, so it's confusing how you want me to write them.

I'm still sorting this issue out. Generally, they have one reading when they are by themselves (often the onyomi) and another when they are grouped together (often the kunyomi). So at the moment, you enter the kanji's onyomi. (...) Also, by adding in compound words, the number of items to be learned jumps up a lot. I'm already concerned about how long I'd need to make the game just to encompass my 300 kanji goal. It's a WIP.

Well, the thing is that just knowing the onyomi or the kunyomi of the kanji is pretty useless; you need to know how they're read in the context of different words. So I suggest you get a list of the most common words that use those 300 kanji; first, words with only one kanji (and some kana), then some that combine them, etc. Not sure where you could get such a list, though, and yeah, this would probably require you to lengthen the game, but it's natural if you really want to learn those 300 kanji.

[homeDrone]

I updated the Flash, it's now V0.3. Including the changes I mentioned above, I also put in the sliding bar for setting your starting level, and the characters don't hide when you are executing an action. Instead the selected character turns gold.

I need to spend some quality time with my map editor now. The menus could use some reorganizing as well I think.

EDIT: I forgot to mention I added a feature called LEARN RATE that allows you to speed up the rate that new characters appear.

[Droqen]

I love learn rate, and you may want to check out this weird glitch because it means I can no longer walk to the right ;_;

In response to what agj's saying, I don't mind the walk speed at all.

I do think it's sort of weird that repeating the same action is the slowest thing you can do. At the moment it's a bit faster for me to alternate (as Rogue*) between regular attack and triple-shot attack. Likewise, it's a lot faster to go left-up-left-up-left-up than it is to do left-left-left-up-up-up because I can prepare myself for the next action while the previous action is completing, as long as it's not the same one. I think it's a bit weird but not a terrible problem or anything.
*you should spell this correctly, too. it's not a big deal, but it is ROGUE and not ROUGE (that just means red in french)

Changes number 1, 2, and 3: All good. It might be good to let the player know how many hints there are left, though, possibly even making the last of the five hints somewhat transparent so they know they aren't going to be getting that hint any more?


I'm making it much further than I used to be (is toshi the last of the kanji in this version?)! This game is a lot of fun, but there is definitely some trial-and-error involved (which, somehow, seems to work well when done alongside the kanji-learning because you get to keep some of your progress even if it's not really involved with the actual game). It takes some getting used to the combat, as it is somewhat slow and you need to think about positioning. If I could make one suggestion in terms of the actual game, the Knight's basic attacks could be made better than the Rogue's arrows; right now his only real advantage is the spin attack (which is pretty weak) and the shield (easier to use than the jump against some attacks, traps). The Rogue is faster, has range, and has a spread attack that deals regular damage, has a damage-dodge that works against anything without requiring proper positioning (while the Knight's shield is useless against a wide variety of traps because of the directions they come from).

... oh! Does the Knight have more health/armour?

( Really looking forward to future versions! >.> )

[homeDrone]

I love learn rate,

Cool. I'm glad.

and you may want to check out this weird glitch

Doh. I'm sorry about that bug. I've never seen it before, but I have a hunch what the problem is. You are right, toshi is the last kanji I have put in so far.. and I'm guessing you were maxed out in kanji when that happened?

I do think it's sort of weird that repeating the same action is the slowest thing you can do.

I'd never thought about that  That's why you suggested move the selected character to the middle or something before I'm guessing. I'll think about this one for a bit.

*you should spell this correctly, too. it's not a big deal, but it is ROGUE and not ROUGE (that just means red in french)

  totally. My spelling is terrible in general.

the Knight's basic attacks could be made better than the Rogue's arrows.

Does the Knight have more health/armour?

The Knight's basic attack has one really useful feature that nothing else does. It interrupts the enemies attacks. Plus, the Knight has twice the health of the Rogue.

I do find that I use the special action a lot more with the Rogue, so I go through the kanji faster. For that, and because of his lower health, and because the dodge requires specific timing, I find the Rogue is the more difficult of the two.

Please keep telling me how you find the balance of the two classes.

[biomechanic]

It would be awesome if the learning aspect of the game involved some mnemonic devices akin to the ones in Heisig's books (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remembering_the_Kanji), they are really effective.

[Droqen]

Doh. I'm sorry about that bug. I've never seen it before, but I have a hunch what the problem is. You are right, toshi is the last kanji I have put in so far.. and I'm guessing you were maxed out in kanji when that happened?

That I was.

I'd never thought about that  That's why you suggested move the selected character to the middle or something before I'm guessing. I'll think about this one for a bit.

Yeah, that's right I suppose I didn't explain myself quite so well the first time around, so it's a good thing I re-explained that, I guess! It isn't a huge deal, but I figure it'd make some common things (walking in a straight line, attacking repeatedly, unlocking+opening a door) a little more streamlined.

The Knight's basic attack has one really useful feature that nothing else does. It interrupts the enemies attacks. Plus, the Knight has twice the health of the Rogue.

I do find that I use the special action a lot more with the Rogue, so I go through the kanji faster. For that, and because of his lower health, and because the dodge requires specific timing, I find the Rogue is the more difficult of the two.

Please keep telling me how you find the balance of the two classes.

Oh! That makes a lot of sense. I was wondering why my arrows weren't interrupting attacks when I remembered interrupting attacks as someone before, so it's nice to have that bit of confusion worked out.

My current analysis of the classes and their abilities since you seemed interested!:

• Knight vs Rogue: Rogue is definitely the more "elite" of the two; jump requires timing, you move faster instead of having more health, and your attacks are dangerous to use up close. If you're quick of finger and quick of mind, the Rogue can really shine -- but the Knight is easier to use well.
• Shield vs Jump: The balance here is good, and generally Shield is a lot easier to use when it can be used, and is better in controlled combat-heavy situations while Jump is a teensy bit tougher and more useful against traps.
• Basic Knight vs Basic Rogue Attack: Given the knight attack interrupts, it seems pretty balanced. It's a bit annoying to wait for the enemy to attack just so you can interrupt them, but it might be too easy if attacking an enemy made them pause even if they weren't yet attacking. The arrow is great but definitely seems more difficult to use in close combat.
• Split arrow: Incredibly useful. It seems a bit too useful, and I'm wondering if it should be a bit slower (than it already is; I know it's a good deal slower than basic arrow) -- or possibly fire only two arrows (not one down the middle), meaning you can't simply use it instead of the regular attack? In that case, maybe it should fire at regular speed. ... Just tossing ideas out there, I don't know if this is a good idea at all :] but I think it could do with a bit of tweaking to put more of a thought process behind its use?
• Spin attack: Seems pitiful, except in situations where you're meant to be swarmed with enemies (like that one ghost-trap tile. ouch!). Although it is very useful if you're swamped by a spawn tile and you use a power potion. It's also useful to attack enemies without them being able to attack you (since it hits on diagonals and you can keep running). The only attack that lets you attack while running away, which is strange, but that's what I find it's mostly useful for.
• Knockback+Pierce Attacks: I find myself using them less and less, but I'm not sure if there's much to replace them with. They're useful on occasion.
• More Classes: I think it'd be pretty awesome to see more classes, but I wouldn't want to take too much time away from development on the rest of this game (were you considering making more at all?)

[homeDrone]

I have put an alternate version up at

http://homedrone.110mb.co/kanjiTest.html ( V0.3b) to test the new way the characters are displayed when you make an action. I thought it was a little busy at first, but I'm used to it now.

Also, I tweaked the delay on the triple shot. In fact, it shoots as fast as before, but there is a little extra cool down time (where he just stands and admires his handiwork  ).

• Knockback+Pierce Attacks: I find myself using them less and less, but I'm not sure if there's much to replace them with. They're useful on occasion.
• More Classes: I think it'd be pretty awesome to see more classes, but I wouldn't want to take too much time away from development on the rest of this game (were you considering making more at all?)

Great breakdown of the classes. Thanks for the input 

I meant for the knockback attacks to be more of a utility than an attack. Though, if the critter is hit by a knockback attack and has nowhere to go, the damage is increased. I probably need to make it more effective since the speed of the attack is so slow.

I do have plans for a wizard class. but I won't be working in it until most of everything else is done. Or if I need a change of pace. I've thought about a Valkyrie class to homage Gauntlet that little bit further, but as yet can't think of a fun role for her to play. Does a Knight like class with the health and speed of the Rogue seem interesting? The wizard will be weak like the rogue and slow like the Knight. His defensive SPECIAL will be to teleport (maybe using the mouse to help) but not through walls.

and you may want to check out this weird glitch

I have not been able to solve that bug yet . Nor can I reproduce it. It was not the problem I anticipated. Have you had it just the one time? or more than once? It's possible it has something to do with using a profile started in one version and loaded in another, but as far as I can tell, I have accounted for that. If that happens to you again (or anyone for that matter) please quit to the hero menu and select the KANJI STATS option. Look for anything odd, like "undefined" showing up.

It would be awesome if the learning aspect of the game involved some mnemonic devices akin to the ones in Heisig's books (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remembering_the_Kanji), they are really effective.

This is interesting. Where you thinking of some kind of image or phrase that shows up on the screen when a new character is revealed to you?

[Droqen]

test the new way the characters are displayed when you make an action.

I like it! The ooonly problem I have with this is that it takes a lot of the attention off of the character you just picked -- but you already typed it so it's not much of a problem, right? I guess plopping the just-typed character right in the middle of the screen (in gold or something) would be bad.

(also you're welcome for the class breakdown ^^ I think knockback attacks are pretty useful against a solo enemy, but I'm thinking the main issue is that they don't really offer any interesting tactical advantages)

I do have plans for a wizard class. but I won't be working in it until most of everything else is done. Or if I need a change of pace. I've thought about a Valkyrie class to homage Gauntlet that little bit further, but as yet can't think of a fun role for her to play. Does a Knight like class with the health and speed of the Rogue seem interesting? The wizard will be weak like the rogue and slow like the Knight. His defensive SPECIAL will be to teleport (maybe using the mouse to help) but not through walls.

I think using the mouse should be avoided; just because currently all the controls are keyboard-bound...

I'll respond to other classes in a bit but what about a movement-based class?

Acrobat (list of just possible abilities)

• Backstep (useful in combat or against many traps)
• Hurdle (does what the ghost does? useful but requires you to turn around again to use it again, and needs space on the other side and all that)
• Lunge (charge up, then step forward and attack, maybe this is the knockback)

Anyway, take from that what you will

I have not been able to solve that bug yet . Nor can I reproduce it. It was not the problem I anticipated. Have you had it just the one time? or more than once? It's possible it has something to do with using a profile started in one version and loaded in another, but as far as I can tell, I have accounted for that. If that happens to you again (or anyone for that matter) please quit to the hero menu and select the KANJI STATS option. Look for anything odd, like "undefined" showing up.

"undefined" shows up!
the number of hits is "undef",
and both romaji and meaning have nothing.

[homeDrone]

I updated the test version with more Kanji. I also noticed I'd forgotten "wo" from the Hiragana  . This will mess up your "hits" data. I'm sorry bout that. I'm hoping that wasn't so important to you anyway. I also hope that will solve your "undefined" problem. Please check your Kanji Stats. I don't really know what caused your profile to get an undefined character, but I'm going with it being due to version change for now. If it happens again or if the "undefined" character does not go away, I will need to look harder.

Maybe the Valkyrie class can use some of your acrobatic ideas to give it it's own niche. Good ideas to think about.

For the Wizard, I wasn't sure about the mouse yet myself. I wanted to see what it was like anyway. After thinking about it more though, a system I've thought of that uses the keyboard might be better anyway. 

I was wondering if this is the right place for this post. Should I move this to DevLogs? And if so.. ah..how?