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[Gimym JIMBERT]

Regarding the massive critic Tale of tales had receive about their artware (or any other artware actually) for not being good enough.

Most time the good artist are not the pioneer, being a pioneer is always foolish and produce pretty rough work. Those who makes the trails are eventually outdo by those who follow them.

Is it still okay to fail and being praise for the effort, instead of being point for not being good and living up the expectation? especially when we shoot for something radically different? Can we simply tell them nice try but not quite there? a part of being indie is to try new things and being able to fail, don't you think so?

[jwk5]

I don't think they failed. They may not have created the World's Greatest Game but they did create something interesting, at least on some level. Some of my favorite video games and game series got pretty lackluster reviews. Such as the Tenchu series, which still sells quite well despite those reviews. It may not be a success by journalism standards but people still love them some Tenchu.

[PsySal]

I remember a game for N64 called Body Harvest. Somebody on the staff at the then-most-popular-nintendo-fanboy-site Nintendorks.com was really into this game so I bought it. Anyhow the game fails in a lot of ways but if you can get past it's failings, there really isn't anything like it. Super open-ended, you get in cars, drive around, shoot aliens, total chaos and pure enjoyment! Really, really hard though, and not always on purpose.

So this game failed and succeeded, but really the story is what the sequels were. Long story short, it evolved into the modern day GTA series!

True story! (Somewhat) (I think)

[Glaiel-Gamer]

Is it still okay to fail and being praise for the effort, instead of being point for not being good and living up the expectation? especially when we shoot for something radically different? Can we simply tell them nice try but not quite there? a part of being indie is to try new things and being able to fail, don't you think so?

I would, but I don't like their "only our games are real art" attitude

[J. R. Hill]

Relevant speech

[Movius]

Theres nothing wrong with failure as such. However, all the praise for effort in the world won't make the failed games any better.

Also, ToT cop far more shit for the long nonsensical spiels posted on their blog than they do for their actual games.

[Mipe]

I believe they hyped their artware a bit much, resulting in bigger disappointments for the critics.

[Zaphos]

I remember a game for N64 called Body Harvest.

Oh man, way back when, I rented that game and fell in love with it!  And then I forgot what it was called for the longest time.  I remember seeing it used in game stop much later, half-recognizing it and mentioning to a friend that I thought I had rented it a long time ago and it was great, but wasn't sure, and the friend informed me, "no, that can't be right; that was a terrible game."

[SirDigga]

I remember a game for N64 called Body Harvest.

Oh man, way back when, I rented that game and fell in love with it!  And then I forgot what it was called for the longest time.  I remember seeing it used in game stop much later, half-recognizing it and mentioning to a friend that I thought I had rented it a long time ago and it was great, but wasn't sure, and the friend informed me, "no, that can't be right; that was a terrible game."

I remember reading a Preview about this game, 2years before it came out.... I was sssooo excited about it.  I think it was because i got Blastcorps on launch and I wanted another game simular to that (dont laugh I was young-ish).  When it did come out, I didn't even play it. 

[Edmund]

In order to grow as an artist you must not only "fail", but also be willing to accept that you will always be a work on progress and learn from your mistakes.

I honestly have a lot of respect for the act of developing games like Fatale and passage, even thought i don't agree with viewing them as "games" or finished pieces.

Pieces of these games will become stepping stones, like people have mentioned above.

really if you think of the general idea of what's acceptable in game design as lets say.. a giant sticky roach trap and every time someone makes a game that pushes some limits their body sticks to the trap and they die. that area of the trap is now a safe zone to explore, and the ideas that worked in the design can be used and refined by other designers.

it sucks to make something and have it not be well accepted, but its this risk taking that does lead to creative growth.

For me personally i view almost all my past work as small failures in many ways and with each new game i try to accept what was wrong with the previous and improve on it.

Coil was my of improving on where i felt Triachnid was lacking when it came to emotion in game design, but i felt the vague story and the way i told Coil was a failure.

Aether was my way of improving on Coils design in terms of talking through a game about personal experiences attempting to make a more clear vision and theme that wasn't simply left up to interpretation but i feel the game was lacking in structure.

Time Fcuk was my way of giving structure to a personal theme but also making the theme more universal and not as personal as aether in hope more people could relate and understand the message, in the end i feel Time Fcuk is probably better then all the past games mentioned but i see clearly that i failed again when it came to giving the player a clear message and a lot of the weird theme and humor confused people.

that's my take on failure anyway...

-Edmund

[ஒழுக்கின்மை]

edmund's post makes me miss the days when tigsource was populated mainly by posts / attitudes like his

as indie devs especially we should be accepting of failure because people's first games are going to fail in an amazing variety and number of ways, it's only as you make more games that the number of ways your games come up short against your expectations is reduced.

the key thing is: people tend to see the failure of a game as a moral failing in its developer. even people who should know better (due to failing in their own games).

[0rel]

Relevant speech

So true... Thanks for the link.

[Lurk]

Regarding the massive critic Tale of tales had receive about their artware (or any other artware actually) for not being good enough.

Be careful about associating success or failure with so-called 'critical acclaim'. These days, just look at mainstream review sites and see how often they will review a game while an advertisement for the same game is displayed on the right or top bar. You can talk about 'commercial success/failure' by objectively looking at the sales and profit numbers; but as of the game success/failure to accomplish its set goal, it's a bit harder to do on more than a personal level ("this game really did not do it for me"). Whether the developers then take your comments into account is another step.

 

[jwk5]

"If I find 10,000 ways something won't work, I haven't failed. I am not discouraged, because every wrong attempt discarded is another step forward".

[ஒழுக்கின்மை]

Be careful about associating success or failure with so-called 'critical acclaim'. These days, just look at mainstream review sites and see how often they will review a game while an advertisement for the same game is displayed on the right or top bar. You can talk about 'commercial success/failure' by objectively looking at the sales and profit numbers; but as of the game success/failure to accomplish its set goal, it's a bit harder to do on more than a personal level ("this game really did not do it for me"). Whether the developers then take your comments into account is another step.

i also think that neoshaman should perhaps actually go read some reviews of, say, the path. it got generally positive reviews, is on steam, and i believe is selling fairly well for an indie game. the path's forums are also swimming in a huge amount of praise, people who said the game changed their lives can be found there. i think most of the negativity towards tale of tales comes from gaming forums like this one, not from actual reviews or player feedback.

[C.A. Silbereisen]

I know this doesn't have a lot to do with the topic, but the reason I didn't like The Path was the goth/emo looks of the girls. I think a game that's as vague and "parable-like" as The Path is better off using "timeless" imagery. Making references to these subcultures places it firmly in the noughties.

Wow, that probably sounded incredibly shallow. 

[jwk5]

I call it the "Halo effect", for every three people that enjoy it there is going to be one person who hates it just because it has become fashionable to do so. Most of the people that truly do not like the game don't say much because they are pretty much indifferent to it all, they're just like "Meh, I don't like it." and move on. A lot of times it is hard to separate those who don't really like a game, commercial or indie, from those who are just trying to be a negative jackass.

I think really Tale of Tales' "those who don't get it are just gamer nerd losers" stance is really what is firing up a lot of animosity. If they have truly failed anywhere I would say it is there because all they are managing to do with that is to alienate people who might have otherwise given the game a chance, for no good reason at all. They are being every bit the negative jackasses as the people who are being critical of them.

I know this doesn't have a lot to do with the topic, but the reason I didn't like The Path was the goth/emo looks of the girls. I think a game that's as vague and "parable-like" as The Path is better off using "timeless" imagery. Making references to these subcultures places it firmly in the noughties.

Wow, that probably sounded incredibly shallow. 

I felt the same way. My favorite music is Goth and Darkwave and I love the scene, so don't get me wrong here, but yeah I think they tried too hard to deliver their message. It feels like the game is screaming it at you rather than trying to deliver it nice and subtle. That is really what makes me feel "meh" towards it. They've made such noise about its sophistication, both in-game and out, that it doesn't really feel sophisticated (to me), it just feels "engineered" if that makes sense.

[Alec]

I agree with the above.

They have no sense of subtly or nuance in either their games' "messages" or in their interactions with the community. I respect that they're making stuff the way they want, (just like I respect MDickie for the same thing) but I have no respect for their childish behaviour and self-serving attitudes. More narrow-minded and antagonistic behaviour isn't going to encourage the community to be open to exploring new concepts.

That said, the fact that they basically act like angry teenagers in the public eye does get them a lot of attention as evidenced by these threads and the surrounding "controversy".

[Widget]

I think really Tale of Tales' "those who don't get it are just gamer nerd losers" stance is really what is firing up a lot of animosity. If they have truly failed anywhere I would say it is there because all they are managing to do with that is to alienate people who might have otherwise given the game a chance, for no good reason at all. They are being every bit the negative jackasses as the people who are being critical of them.

Very much this. I would have definitely played and, possibly, even bought The Path just because of the splash it's made, but every new piece of correspondence regarding the game or genre* from the mouths of the creators has made me feel more like it was conceived and crafted as a personal attack on me as a person who enjoys games!

I respect that they're trying to promote an alternative view of the scope that can be aspired to within the realm of digital media, but the attitude gets my hackles up...

*the term "genre" does it a disserve, I think, in implying that it's no more different than RTS from FPS but it's a useful term in this context

[Melly]

"If I find 10,000 ways something won't work, I haven't failed. I am not discouraged, because every wrong attempt discarded is another step forward".

OOT, but didn't Thomas Edison steal most of his 'inventions', including the light bulb that he stole from Nikola Tesla, then proceeded to discredit and persecute Tesla for many years?

At least that's the story I heard.

On topic, I agree that it's important to always try new things, and fail inthe process. It's inevitable. Unless you're some kind of super-genius that can read minds and mold your new concept in a way that'll make it widely acclaimed and praised.

Reminds me a bit of Mirror's Edge. It's gameplay was unique, and I had never played anything 'quite' like it, but it lacked in most other aspects, making it a mediocre experience in the eyes of most people. Still, it tread new ground that hopefully will inspire people in the future.