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[droqen]

LINK [FLASH] I like FlashPunk.
Okay, so I was going to get you fine people some screenshots, but... really, just click on the link. It's 57.57 KB of one-screen combat system, so there's not much I could show you that you wouldn't see within 10 seconds of clicking on the link!

Controls (this is important, it's complicated for the moment)

UP/DOWN arrows = Move your guys around (they're on the left). Only works if nobody is out attacking.

789
456 = You need the numpad! Make attacks.
123

7 . .
4 . . = Attack with top/middle/bottom character.
1 . .

123 = Attack with sword (40% energy), spear (60% energy), or arrow (100% energy).

You can quickly attack twice as long as you have energy left.
All attacks deal 1 damage.
Sword is short-ranged but cheapest.
Spear is a little longer-ranged, and only a little more expensive.
Arrow is really expensive but very safe to use.

The future holds more weapons, defensive maneuvers, as well as a game to go around this -- but for the moment I made this Design thread to ask about this combat system.

So, um, this is kind of Feedback, kind of DevLog, but I really wanted to get some very Design-focused feedback and response so that's why it's here :D

[Also I'm sorry that the whole thing is not very helpful when it comes to the game explaining what you can do what you should do and how you should do it but that will be remedied. For now I hope you can figure it out.]

[SirNiko]

When I played, my strategy was to simply let one character die and then shuffle the group to make enemy attacks hit the 'dead' slot. That usually didn't work if two enemies were attacking at once, so soon a second guy died. When that happened, the fight slowed down because I only had two attackers. I ended with one guy with near-full health a second in disabled status.

I tended to use arrows the most, and only went to daggers when the enemy team had been disabled and couldn't fight back.

I wish it would give me an indicator that certain characters have enough energy to engage certain attacks. Maybe with icons (knife appears when ready) or colored indicators on the charge bar.

What ideas do you have for the game that's around this? Sonny style series of fights with scenes in between? Or a JRPG style game and this is the battle system (Sort of like Megaman Battle Network, which was a good game in my opinion). That's going to dictate a lot of where this goes.

-SirNiko

[skado]

I think it's a neat little battle system   I could see it being very tactical based. I think it's kinda like ffx's battle system in a way. Swapping chars in and out based on the situation. And of course lining up "tank chars" to take the majority of enemy attacks.

You'd have to make smart AI for it to be tough, though. Otherwise, you'd just be able to swap the one dead char around and around to block all the attacks coming in.

[droqen]

SirNiko and skado: Thanks for the feedback! I will proceed to respond.

Oh dear. I will want to avoid that! Some more is to be explained in a second.
Good to hear. I actually used daggers (due to the double-attack you can make) very frequently, and arrows only to counter spears (and likewise, spears only to counter daggers). So it's very cool to hear you prefer a different strategy.
The icons are probably one of the first things I'm going to add :]
* Answered further down the line

I have not played ffx! But that sounds cool. Soon enough characters will definitely have more differentiation, too, so lining up guys for different things will happen (there will be defensive actions soon enough too).
Yep. I really just tossed this AI together quickly, so I'll definitely need to work on it.

The Plan
Definitely not Sonny-style -- closer to JRPG, but my current plan is to do a very, very condensed game with a one-screen (thus, small) procedurally generated overworld that gives you a random battle (or at least a random event?) every step you take. (Along with some other cool stuff, including dreams of generated plots and stories.)
There will be the notion of permadeath, so if you let one of your guys actually die, it won't be good.
As well as possibly:

• Morale (If the enemies beat on a bloodied corpse, your allies lose morale)
• Movement Cost (Not so much a discrete cost as something more along the lines of no energy recovery while moving, or perhaps a slight drain)

[J. R. Hill]

It was hard to play, and I it felt like it was both too slow and too fast.  Everything felt like slow motion, but it required quick reactions.  I think the actual attacks need to be animated slower or the shifting and turn-bars need to be sped up to balance them better.
 

[SirNiko]

If it were my game, I'd go one of two ways:

1. Gradually build up the player's arsenal. As you progress, new characters with new attacks join your ranks, new spells and new equipment. The player is given a large number of options, but they only can use a few at a time. Final Fantasy 9 had a system like this where you had a list of skills but you could only activate so many at a time, and you couldn't switch mid-combat. Paper Mario 1 and 2 used a similar system with badges. Players decide which skills to choose based on personal preference, or to overcome the particular monsters they will encounter in whatever zone.

2. Dictate the player's options based on area. This is the Final Fantasy 4 school of thought. As you progress, the player's party (and available skills and weapons) is changed by the game, forcing you to adapt. Early stages present you with a powerful party against weak foes, while later stages may force you to fight powerful foes with relatively weak teams. A common occurrence will be the player finding one party they like (All archers, for example) and then later being forced to adapt to something contrary to their play style (A team of dagger-using thieves).

Either way, I'd make it so the player has only a few simple options to start, and explore all the possible ways to make combats within that limited scope. Then you add some additional options, explore all the variations, and repeat.

Looking forward to seeing where you decide to go with this!

-SirNiko

[Skofo]

all systems friendly <3

EXCUSE ME THIS GAME DIDN'T WORK ON MY AMIGA SYSTEM.


On a serious note, that is a pretty interesting experimental fight system you have there; a mesh of real-time and turn-based combat! However, this particular system does not appear to work well in practice as it is. What it ultimately succeeds in doing is making it harder to take damage as there are less people to take damage, which does not really make sense; a 1v3 match in real life is supposed to be stacked in the bigger team's favor, not vice versa. If you plan on using something like this system, I think that it'd make more sense and be funner if you couldn't use dead bodies to block attacks.

[nihilocrat]

This is neat, but as stated above, there are various ways you can exploit it. I think the "corpse shield" is the most obvious one, I'm curious to see how it would play if you removed the "X" slots from play entirely.

It looks like a system with promise that just needs a few tweaks to the fundamentals before it's good to build a game upon.

[droqen]

I think the actual attacks need to be animated slower or the shifting and turn-bars need to be sped up to balance them better.

I want to hold more towards turn-based than real-time. I may slow down all of the movements (so that would be the first suggestion).

a few simple options to start, and explore all the possible ways to make combats within that limited scope

I will probably give the player very few options to start out with, and work my way up.

I'm not totally sure how I feel about forcing the player into different party makeups but I think it could be good if executed well.

I, too, am looking forward to what I do with this xD

AMIGA SYSTEM.

Hahahaha xD
Thanks. I do need to fix that, it seems.

Soon enough dead bodies will be ineffective shields.

"corpse shield" ... removed the "X" slots

But what would happen to the empty spaces?
    
    
    
Three of the 'same guy' against three different guy, except sharing stamina and health bars? A bit too weird for me, though I considered it.
 
(Oh, and thank you! I will be definitely making some tweaks to try to make sure it feels... better.)


I'd love to hear some alternate suggestions, though!

One thing I considered momentarily was narrowing the 'battlefield' depending on the number of combatants the smallest team has. I'd like to avoid that, but it may be the best way to avoid corpse shielding.

The other idea is simply ending the combat after someone is actually killed, because the losing team cries like a baby and runs away.
And... teams are required to be 4 people strong? I wonder if that would be too artificial a limitation to bind people to.

[SidM]

Simple - Allow Diagonal attacks.

Additionally, you can only roulette between the blokes you have alive. The corpses ( * ) get shunted to the sides (where you can res them if you allow resurrection)


Case 1 (4 v 4)

X -- A
X -- A
X -- A
X -- A

Case 2 (3 + 1 corpse v 4)

* /- A
X -- A
X -- A
X -- A

Case 3 (2 + 2 corpse v 4)

* /- A
X -- A
X -- A
* \- A

Case 4 (1 + 3 corpse v 4)

* /- A
X -- A
* \- A
*  \ A

[Cagey]

It looks cool... but I don't have have a numpad. *sadface*

[droqen]

Sorry Cagey ;_; When I make a new update, I will add QWE-ASD-ZXC alternate controls, because remapping is something I'm not totally sure how to do here (and I'd have to make a menu and stuff too). I hope you have a qwerty keyboard :x

[ I was trying to make it work for regular number keys too but couldn't find the bindings :/ ]


edit: SidM, I might just do something like that. Maybe like this...
x4
>A<
>B<
>C<
(D)

x3
>A< on-screen
>B<
{B} takes the damage
(C) off-screen

>A<
{A or B}
>B<

x2
{A}
>A<
{A}
(B)

x1

{A}
>A<
{A}
not allowed to loop/cycle

[X3N]

I like it.
Perfect response to "How do we make RPG battles more interesting?"  
MP for "Recharge one character fast" or attack bonuses would be cool imo.

[Cagey]

http://livedocs.adobe.com/flash/9.0/ActionScriptLangRefV3/flash/ui/Keyboard.html

That link has bindings to the normal numbers. FlashPunk is thoroughly awesome, it's just lacking those numbers!