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[PsySal]

I spent a few days playing this rather than finishing it all in one go. I think it's really well thought out in terms of level design and has a great atmosphere to boot.

The game really takes on a new dimension though when you realize that spaceman is Sandy Squirrel from spongebob.

[Radix]

As I mentioned in the comments of the frontpage article, I'm with Tom Sennet on this one. A funny gimmick with graphical glitches isn't exactly enough to keep me plowing through a platformer about switches and platforms. I could swear this is not the first or the best time I've played a platformer about switches and platforms.

Whether or not you enjoy switch puzzles is your own business (I'm not a huge fan either), and whether or not this game is "the best" is a matter of opinion... but I'm curious to know where you got the impression that it's supposed to be.

[TOM SENNETT]

As I mentioned in the comments of the frontpage article, I'm with Tom Sennet on this one. A funny gimmick with graphical glitches isn't exactly enough to keep me plowing through a platformer about switches and platforms. I could swear this is not the first or the best time I've played a platformer about switches and platforms.

Whether or not you enjoy switch puzzles is your own business (I'm not a huge fan either), and whether or not this game is "the best" is a matter of opinion... but I'm curious to know where you got the impression that it's supposed to be.

Why would I want to play a game that doesn't strive to be the best of its kind?

It seems like REDDER presents (again, just from what I've read) some interesting gameplay/narrative synergy, but that doesn't mean shit when the gameplay is the same boring stuff I've seen a million times before.

And of course whether I enjoy switch puzzles is my business.

I don't. So what's this game got to offer me?

[John Nesky]

Perhaps it has nothing to offer you. That's fine. 

[TOM SENNETT]

Perhaps it has nothing to offer you. That's fine. 

Thank you for illustrating everything wrong with indie games

[John Nesky]

That they don't appeal to everyone? I'm not sure how to interpret that.

[jwk5]

The "best" is a highly personal term when it comes to entertainment. Everyone has their own definition of what qualifies as "the best", or even "boring" and "fun". I know tons of people who love MMO games and swear World of Warcraft is great but I can't play MMOs, they make my brain bleed. They are boring to me no matter how much time I sink into them (which is strange considering I love RPGs, even grind-heavy ones). It's not that MMOs are bad it is just that they don't appeal to me personally. It would be pretty unfair for me to judge them when by default I pretty much just do not like them.

And of course whether I enjoy switch puzzles is my business.

I don't. So what's this game got to offer me?

Which is akin to walking into a vegan restaurant going "Hey, why can't I get any steak!?" This game probably doesn't have anything to offer you, so move on.

[Anarkex]

That they don't appeal to everyone? I'm not sure how to interpret that.

John why is it always an excuse with indie games. If I don't like one, it's MY PROBLEM. WELL MAYBE YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE PLAYED SO MUCH VIDEO GAMES ALEX, THEN YOU WOULDN'T BE TIRED OF THIS DERIVATIVE GAME MECHANIC. Well, yeah, that might be true. But it's still regressive game design. When, in the face of more exciting, complex platformers, people praise simple, boring, old mechanics done up with pretty graphics and sound, that's the definition of regression. I've been doing this a while, and never once has the community taken criticism in stride. It's always some kind of problem with the critic, whether he's too close-minded, too jaded, or GOD FORBID he plays too many video games.

I don't want to overdo it or steal Tom's thunder, but I think you get the picture.

The "best" is a highly personal term when it comes to entertainment. Everyone has their own definition of what qualifies as "the best", or even "boring" and "fun".

DUURR APINIONS ANARKEX, APINIONS. Excuse me. Of fecking COURSE IT'S AN OPINION. However, it's the opinion of, if you don't mind my bragging, an experienced son of a gun. It's backed by fact: the mechanic has been done before. I have played games with this mechanic in them. In fact, I've played games with this mechanic in AS A DIVERSION to multiple other mechanics. Two switches and two block types was barely enough to run an entire game off of fifteen years ago, and today it's absolutely pathetic. I don't know why this has to be explained.

Which is akin to walking into a vegan restaurant going "Hey, why can't I get any steak!?" This game probably doesn't have anything to offer you, so move on.

It's akin to walking into a Zagat-rated four-star restaurant promising great things and asking why we're getting chicken mcnuggets. Do you read Anna Anthropy's blog? She talks like some kind of prophet.

[moi]

Good job eresing the thread Radix.

[John Nesky]

To me, Redder was genuinely fun and interesting. I almost missed going to my first GDC talk on Thursday morning because I was too involved with playing Redder. I don't pay much attention to Anna's blog, so maybe I escaped the high expectations curse. I am probably being overly defensive because I like to defend things that I like. Just as long as it's understood that liking the game is a valid thing to do, I'm ok.

Solving puzzles is often interesting to me even if they are similar to previous puzzles as long as there is variation in the solution, and I'm pretty sure there are puzzles in Redder that have no exact equivalent in previous games. Similarly, Metroid: Zero Mission isn't as good as Super Metroid, but I still enjoyed playing Zero Mission more than I would have enjoyed playing Super Metroid yet again.

[Anarkex]

It's all good, John. Might I recommend the GBA Klonoa games? Those things reinvented my concept of the puzzle platformer.

[jwk5]

DUURR APINIONS ANARKEX, APINIONS. Excuse me. Of fecking COURSE IT'S AN OPINION. However, it's the opinion of, if you don't mind my bragging, an experienced son of a gun. It's backed by fact: the mechanic has been done before. I have played games with this mechanic in them. In fact, I've played games with this mechanic in AS A DIVERSION to multiple other mechanics. Two switches and two block types was barely enough to run an entire game off of fifteen years ago, and today it's absolutely pathetic. I don't know why this has to be explained.

Ok, so the mechanic has been done before. 90% of the games in the video game industry, be it indie or otherwise, have mechanics that have been done before. Not everyone sets out to reinvent the wheel, some just want to make a different tire. I am not saying that makes the game (Redder) good or bad, I am just saying that a similarity in mechanics doesn't define its overall value to everyone.

It's akin to walking into a Zagat-rated four-star restaurant promising great things and asking why we're getting chicken mcnuggets. Do you read Anna Anthropy's blog? She talks like some kind of prophet.

Except we're not talking about Anna's blog here (which I've not read*), we talking about the comments:

And of course whether I enjoy switch puzzles is my business.

I don't. So what's this game got to offer me?

If, for example, you don't like RPGs why would you go to a thread about an RPG and complain "What does this RPG have to offer me?" That was my point.




* I've found it better to not read many blogs or "hype pages" surrounding indie games, they are almost always either incredibly underwhelming or unbearably narcissistic. It wouldn't hurt for the indie scene to get a little more understanding about advertising concepts...

[EDIT:] I looked on Anna's blog but I didn't see where she talks like some kind of prophet... Mind elaborating?[/EDIT]

------------------

...AND BACK TO THE GAME AT HAND...

Anyways, as far as the game (Redder) goes I liked it game play-wise but not so much presentation-wise. It's not that the graphics were bad, it is just that this game follows the same trend I see with a lot of indie games as of late. Especially in a game like this, where you are running room to room, it would be nice to see more work done on the environment and making each area feel unique. I hate running through a maze of re-purposed graphics.

That could have really played into the switch mechanic as a lot of non-interacting set pieces could have changed with the switching to give it a more dramatic feel overall. Other than that gripe it was a pretty neat game.

[TheDustin]

Perhaps it has nothing to offer you. That's fine. 

Thank you for illustrating everything wrong with indie games

"Making the games you want" also extends itself into "making games other people might not like." My little brother is a Sonic fan and bitches at me because I tell him RunMan is better, but I don't think that because he doesn't like it is a failure on your and Matt's part. People just like different shit. 

Anarkex: If you have specific and grounded criticism, sure, fire away. But if you're just going to say vague negative attacks and "WAAA FORUM IZ ONE SIDED" we won't get anywhere.

[Anarkex]

If, for example, you don't like RPGs why would you go to a thread about an RPG and complain "What does this RPG have to offer me?" That was my point.

Let me work with this then. If, for example, you don't like something universally boring for reasons that you can specifically state, and then you see on a website that you frequent that everyone is going nuts for this obviously universally boring thing, and you come in and say "Why is this universally boring"...

Oh for crying out loud, it's called criticism. What you are saying is that because SOMEONE (disregarding his mental state) LIKES A THING, it is then immune to criticism. Seriously, every time I say something about a game, someone says this to me "well if you don't like it, then don't PLAY IT!" Well, it's too late now, ah!

Anarkex: If you have specific and grounded criticism, sure, fire away. But if you're just going to say vague negative attacks and "WAAA FORUM IZ ONE SIDED" we won't get anywhere.

What about my criticism was vague? The entire game is based around a single archaic gimmicky mechanic of flipping switches to activate/deactivate alternate platforms. It's BORING, anyone who's played any 2D Zelda should find this boring. Enemies present absolutely no challenge and are only occasionally a slight annoyance. Despite having better graphics and sound, this game doesn't nearly compare to Jill Off for these reasons, and we all should learn a thing or two about game design from it. Super vague, I know.

[jwk5]

If, for example, you don't like RPGs why would you go to a thread about an RPG and complain "What does this RPG have to offer me?" That was my point.

Let me work with this then. If, for example, you don't like something universally boring for reasons that you can specifically state, and then you see on a website that you frequent that everyone is going nuts for this obviously universally boring thing, and you come in and say "Why is this universally boring"...

Oh for crying out loud, it's called criticism. What you are saying is that because SOMEONE (disregarding his mental state) LIKES A THING, it is then immune to criticism. Seriously, every time I say something about a game, someone says this to me "well if you don't like it, then don't PLAY IT!" Well, it's too late now, ah!

Except we are obviously not talking about something "universally boring", because if that were true everyone wouldn't be going nuts over it. So in reality, what we are talking about is something that is boring to the specific individual. Having a contrary opinion is fine and dandy, but essentially posting on a thread "I don't like this switch game because it is a switch game and I don't like switch games" is pretty asinine. He could have saved us all some time and just posted "Switch games suck." it would have been more to the point.

That being said, I don't see many people going nuts over the game (myself included), in fact most of us have had one complaint regarding it or another (mine being not enough variety in the graphics). It is just that overall most people liked it (despite its flaws).

What about my criticism was vague? The entire game is based around a single archaic gimmicky mechanic of flipping switches to activate/deactivate alternate platforms. It's BORING, anyone who's played any 2D Zelda should find this boring. Enemies present absolutely no challenge and are only occasionally a slight annoyance. Despite having better graphics and sound, this game doesn't nearly compare to Jill Off for these reasons, and we all should learn a thing or two about game design from it. Super vague, I know.

It's boring to you, fair enough and understandable. I've played through many 2D Zeldas many times. I didn't find it boring. *shrug* I don't fault you for finding the game boring I am just not sure why because you find it boring you think everyone must agree.