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[Vanguard]

People are missing out on a very early alpha of a game because it has no instructions? How horrid.

Calling it a "very early alpha" doesn't mean a whole lot when it's never going to get past the alpha stage.  Dwarf Fortress has been in development for three quarters of a decade and people play it the same way they would a completed game.

Tarn could have easily added better instructions, a tutorial, and an improved interface by now, but he decided he'd rather spend several months on a material system that turns out to be detrimental to gameplay.

[Mipe]

Well, I'll tell you something - I enjoy Dwarf Fortress because of its depth and unpredictability, which guarantee mountains of fun and amusement. Interface isn't the best, the learning curve is steep, but hell, there is a whole wiki site dedicated to Dwarf Fortress, there are forums, even I got used to the spartan interface, that actually makes sense if you think about it - keyboard shortcuts have been with us ever since the first text editors. The game is very complex, it accepts many different verbs, it is very difficult to develop a proper interface for it, so Tarn decides to stick with the spartan interface.

Who are we to scold him for that choice? Everyone who has ever played or developed a roguelike knows very well what it is like. It is like being asked to collect yummy fruits in the forest, but instead we opt to complain about thorns, bushes and other obstacles and refuse to move until someone does something about them.

Well, those who opt to act regardless of obstacles get to enjoy these delicious fruits. Now then, I'll get back to having fun in Dwarf Fortress despite its spartan interface. It could be better, yes, but what I really care about is the gameplay, not how pleasant it is to eyes or accessible to one-fingered carpenter with memory of a goldfish.

[C.A. Sinner]

I agree with Mipey.

Also, since when is a learning curve inherently a bad thing? A lot of game designers, both mainstream and indie, seem to think that "accessibility" at any cost is the highest ideal of game development. DF has the steep learning curve embedded in its very concept, it's not like a better interface is going to attract an audience of soccer moms and Xbox Live kiddies all of a sudden.

[roBurky]

Tarn could have easily added better instructions, a tutorial, and an improved interface by now, but he decided he'd rather spend several months on a material system that turns out to be detrimental to gameplay.

That Tarn is doing nothing but increasing the depth of his simulation is why he and his game are so beloved. Every other game developer is is working on the problem of how to make games more accessible and pretty. Tarn is doing the stuff that nobody else gets to do because they feel they have to stop at some point and do the stuff you're asking for.

The crazy stuff like the simulated physical material system is the reason he gets so much donation support. He's doing something incredible that nobody else is doing, and any time somebody suggests he works more like everyone else, it makes me sad.

David Lake posted a comment on RPS yesterday saying that Dwarf Fortress is becoming one of the most significant creations in human history. I can definitely see where he's coming from.

[Chris Whitman]

Yeah, that's why I figure other people should work on fixing up the interface and graphical elements to be more comprehensible...

which is, I believe, exactly what's happening.

So... problem solved?

[Melly]

I'm all for letting Tarn have his fun with crazy insane simulations if someone can update the goddamn Dwarf Manager.

[mark]

I'm all for letting Tarn have his fun with crazy insane simulations if someone can update the goddamn Dwarf Manager.

Looks like the "Dorf Therapist" is looking promising (and a lot better than the Dorf Manager)

http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=39229.0

But he is still fiddling with the new update.

[Valter]

David Lake posted a comment on RPS yesterday saying that Dwarf Fortress is becoming one of the most significant creations in human history. I can definitely see where he's coming from.

I wouldn't say this, mostly because there are definitely other games taking Tarn's approach to game design. Toribash, for example, which is basically the fighting game equivalent to DF.

[Vanguard]

Tarn is doing the stuff that nobody else gets to do because they feel they have to stop at some point and do the stuff you're asking for.

It's not like making a good interface would mark the end of DF as a complex simulation or even take that much of his time.  It couldn't possibly take longer than the new material system that manages to be more complicated, less realistic, and less fun than the old system all at the same time.

Yeah, that's why I figure other people should work on fixing up the interface and graphical elements to be more comprehensible...

which is, I believe, exactly what's happening.

So... problem solved?

They are?  I thought he was afraid someone would reverse engineer his game from the interface code somehow, so they're only redoing his openGL code.  That's good if it's true.

Man I sound really negative, huh?  I don't hate dwarf fortress, but Toady could be using his time much more intelligently.

[Valter]

It's not like making a good interface would mark the end of DF as a complex simulation or even take that much of his time.  It couldn't possibly take longer than the new material system that manages to be more complicated, less realistic, and less fun than the old system all at the same time.

It's not like allowing other players to mod the interface is going to take time away from Tarn's core programming, but that will happen if Tarn futzes with it himself.

[Christian Knudsen]

When did Tarn open up the interface code for people to mod?

[Derek]

Bug fixes, usability/interface improvements and minor/incidental changes will be happening throughout the entire process and aren't listed below. This is especially true after the recent major release.

Core52, INTERFACE OVERHAUL: A coherent interface, additional options and mouse support.

http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html

I'm guessing that an interface overhaul would be imprudent until all of the other major features of the game are settled better.

Also:

Tarn could have easily added better instructions, a tutorial, and an improved interface by now...

It's not like making a good interface would mark the end of DF as a complex simulation or even take that much of his time.

Maybe... it's not quite as easy as you're making it sound?!

I'm looking forward to a better user interface, too, but I wouldn't presume it's easy to do.  Actually, I know UI is challenging.  Especially if you're still moving pieces of the game around internally.  And especially if you're interested in working on games, as most game developers are, and not user interfaces, instructions, and tutorials.

[Chris Whitman]

I have no idea whether other people are actively modding the interface; it's just the impression I got from the thread. It's entirely possible I'm just being illiterate.

Anyway, I seriously have no idea what's going on in this thread. Tarn making the interface simpler will not automagically turn DF into a casual Flash game. While obviously a lot of people find the interface and graphics no problem, I personally, since I like looking at pretty pictures and having some idea of what's happening, am still holding out for graphical and UI updates. That doesn't mean I don't still really appreciate what Tarn is doing, of course. I find even the patch notes for this game strangely riveting.

It seems sort of like everyone here is arguing that everyone else feels the wrong way about the game.

[Vanguard]

I'm looking forward to a better user interface, too, but I wouldn't presume it's easy to do.  Actually, I know UI is challenging.  Especially if you're still moving pieces of the game around internally.

For sure, but there's a difference between 1) a good, finished interface, 2) a flawed and incomplete but coherent interface, and 3) a maze of completely arbitrary commands.  I don't expect to have 1 anytime soon (or ever, honestly), but 2 would be nice for now. 

I'm not asking for the level of polish you'd see from a completed game, let alone a AAA commercial game.  I understand that with things constantly changing you don't want to dedicate a lot of time to making something that will end up obsolete a few releases down the road.

With that said though, the menus in dwarf fortress could at least be made consistent with themselves.  Each new menu added to the game bears no resemblance to the ones that came before it, and the controls make no sense at all.

Why is it that in some menus the up arrow key scrolls up, but in others it's page up, the plus sign, or even the asterisk key?  Why not use the same key for the same action in each menu?  Why does loo'k'ing at a unit give me a different set of options than 'v'iewing a unit does?  Why does the mouse work in some menus but not others?  Why is it 'q' for "new order" and 'l' for "forbid passage?"

Some things like the military windows might take a long time to figure out for whatever reason, but a lot of these issues have quick fixes that could be done in the space of a single day.

Anyway, that's enough ranting from me.

Has anyone figured how the new military stuff works?  I assigned some guys to a squad and they stopped what they were doing and stood in place until they started dying of dehydration.

[Sean A.]

I stuck with it and am enjoying it, although I'm really finding it hard to manage stockpiling, sleeping places, mining, finding food, dehydration. It's all a little much but fun nevertheless.

Edit: And for some reason my smelter won't let me smelt all the magnetite I have.