Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

 
Advanced search

1411283 Posts in 69325 Topics- by 58380 Members - Latest Member: bob1029

March 29, 2024, 03:03:21 AM

Need hosting? Check out Digital Ocean
(more details in this thread)
TIGSource ForumsPlayerGamesHumble indie bundle - pay whatever you want
Pages: 1 ... 17 18 [19] 20 21 ... 26
Print
Author Topic: Humble indie bundle - pay whatever you want  (Read 73882 times)
s0
o
Level 10
*****


eurovision winner 2014


View Profile
« Reply #360 on: December 16, 2010, 06:09:37 PM »

How much professionalism it requires, and the regularity of updates or progress reports it requires is really a matter of public perception. I get the notion here that people think that if they pay me $20 they become my boss somehow, and to me that just isn't acceptable.
Yeah, exactly, it's about public perception. If you neglect the PR side of it, things like this thread are what happens. You can't just build a community around your in-dev project and then be all like "Oh, and by the way guys, I don't actually give much of a shit about you. The artist reigns supreme and if you can't handle that, fuck you."
Logged
weasello
Level 1
*



View Profile WWW
« Reply #361 on: December 16, 2010, 06:18:48 PM »

Hooray! another Humble Indie Bundle. Purchased!

Quote
I get the notion here that people think that if they pay me $20 they become my boss somehow, and to me that just isn't acceptable.

Generalizing: As right or as wrong as you think it is, people do indeed feel entitled after paying money. No matter how hard you wish it to be otherwise, it's simply the truth. If you take someones money, you have to manage this expectation.

Data manages this expectation in his own special way. It is indeed his perogative as to how he goes about this, and he has all rights to do anything he wants..

But that doesn't change the public expectation that has been set.

I really wish the populace didn't feel entitled at the drop of a hat...

But as long as we're wishing for magical ponies: I should really get on refunding my whiny customers and telling them to fuck off. Hand Any Key Lips Sealed
Logged

IndieElite4Eva
Chris Whitman
Sepia Toned
Level 10
*****


A master of karate and friendship for everyone.


View Profile
« Reply #362 on: December 16, 2010, 06:19:16 PM »

I think other people's maturity or lack thereof is their responsibility, not mine.

We're all adults here (more or less). I don't think anyone has to be cajoled or PRed to have a sense of what their expenditure is worth and what they can expect of someone.

Data's reaction was a little aggressive, but understandable. I wouldn't like people saying those sorts of things to me either, and I just might lose my shit in that case too. I just don't think it's beyond people to be a little understanding of someone who has worked very hard on something. Games aren't easy to make.

Edit-t-t-t:

Generalizing: As right or as wrong as you think it is, people do indeed feel entitled after paying money. No matter how hard you wish it to be otherwise, it's simply the truth. If you take someones money, you have to manage this expectation.

Yeah, and I understand it's how people *do* behave, it's just... I think it's really easy to look on people's behavior like it's just some force of nature. I think your money justifies you to what's on the box, basically. As for whether someone is going to meet your arbitrary external standards, I think people have to learn to shed their sense of entitlement at some point, and I do think it's possible.

So sign me up for that magical pony. Smiley
Logged

Formerly "I Like Cake."
weasello
Level 1
*



View Profile WWW
« Reply #363 on: December 16, 2010, 06:21:26 PM »

I just don't think it's beyond people to be a little understanding of someone who has worked very hard on something.

LOL.

That's your problem, right there: It IS, in fact, beyond people. Hence this thread derailing horribly. You give "Joe Q. Public" far too much credit, sir.
Logged

IndieElite4Eva
Chris Whitman
Sepia Toned
Level 10
*****


A master of karate and friendship for everyone.


View Profile
« Reply #364 on: December 16, 2010, 06:22:34 PM »

Great, now my response is out of order.

THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS.
Logged

Formerly "I Like Cake."
weasello
Level 1
*



View Profile WWW
« Reply #365 on: December 16, 2010, 06:23:54 PM »

We can have nice things!

(it's called the Humble Indie Bundle!)
Logged

IndieElite4Eva
Data
Giant Enemy Crab
Level 1
*



View Profile WWW
« Reply #366 on: December 16, 2010, 06:26:26 PM »

I love you guise.   Kiss
Logged
Matthew
Rapture
Administrator
Level 3
******


Milling About


View Profile WWW
« Reply #367 on: December 16, 2010, 07:41:32 PM »

How much professionalism it requires, and the regularity of updates or progress reports it requires is really a matter of public perception. I get the notion here that people think that if they pay me $20 they become my boss somehow, and to me that just isn't acceptable.

580 days between Cortex Command b23 and b24.

So the bottom line is, preselling your game is a double-edged sword and it's not a situation where you can have your cake and eat it too. That's how I see it anyway.

This hits the nail on the head.  Developers can take in money in exchange for a complete game, or take in money for...something else.  Yes, that can mean a lot of different things, but there is an exchange occurring (and IMO Cortex Command is not clearly marked as an "as-is" transaction, either on the HIB page or on Data Realms itself)
Logged

Matthew Wegner
Currently: Aztez
Founder, Flashbang Studios
Partner, Indie Fund
Editor, Fun-Motion
Co-Chair, IGF
Data
Giant Enemy Crab
Level 1
*



View Profile WWW
« Reply #368 on: December 16, 2010, 07:58:36 PM »

What if it was 58 days - would you've been happy? or 5800 days - 10x as upset? Who is anyone to tell us what our release schedule should be? Seriously, what is your right??

No, it is clearly marked as a better than an "as-is" transaction. Not only are you getting the as-is current version, you're also getting ANY and ALL future updates. WHEN isn't implied or promised in any goddamn way, only that we are in fact planning on continuing work on it. That's the entire transaction, and it ends there.

This bullshit about us automatically owing a debt to the customer's "emotional investment" is so ridiculous that I don't even know where to begin. How about my "emotional investment" in my own time, life, and project? How about we call these debts even and cancel them out, ok?? It's a very generous offer on my part.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 08:06:21 PM by Data » Logged
eva_
Guest
« Reply #369 on: December 16, 2010, 08:14:18 PM »

What if it was 58 days - would you've been happy? or 5800 days - 10x as upset? Who is anyone to tell us what our release schedule should be? Seriously, what is your right??

No, it is clearly marked as a better than an "as-is" transaction. Not only are you getting the as-is current version, you're also getting ANY and ALL future updates. WHEN isn't implied or promised in any goddamn way, only that we are in fact planning on continuing work on it. That's the entire transaction, and it ends there.

This bullshit about us automatically owing a debt to the customer's "emotional investment" is so ridiculous that I don't even know where to begin. How about my "emotional investment" in my own time, life, and project? How about we call these debts even and cancel them out, ok?? It's a very generous offer on my part.

who's the one selling the game?
give me your money, i'll give you the game when it's done, but no guarantee that it'll ever be done, oh and also it comes with the cost of me whining about my time and life whenever i hear criticism about my product. good deal.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 08:21:31 PM by eva_ » Logged
ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
Level 10
*****


Also known as रिंकू.


View Profile WWW
« Reply #370 on: December 16, 2010, 08:21:25 PM »

isn't data the guy with that really muscular physique? you guys should be more careful about angering someone built like that, hahaha

anyway despite seeing where eva and allen and mattheww so forth are coming from, and thinking it's completely understandable that people would be upset about nearly 2 years and no updates, i still think data's right here: not all developers develop at the same pace. people have a right to be lazy or to do other things that are more urgent than indie game development (unless there was a contract or agreement or something that he's breaking, and i don't think there is)
Logged

eva_
Guest
« Reply #371 on: December 16, 2010, 08:27:20 PM »

the agreement is the purchase and putting it out in the bundle means more people to deal with. duh
580 days (more than a year and a half) without a word sounds like abandonment to me!
Logged
JamesGecko
Level 3
***



View Profile WWW
« Reply #372 on: December 16, 2010, 08:29:19 PM »

What if it was 58 days - would you've been happy? or 5800 days - 10x as upset? Who is anyone to tell us what our release schedule should be? Seriously, what is your right??

No, it is clearly marked as a better than an "as-is" transaction. Not only are you getting the as-is current version, you're also getting ANY and ALL future updates. WHEN isn't implied or promised in any goddamn way, only that we are in fact planning on continuing work on it. That's the entire transaction, and it ends there.

This bullshit about us automatically owing a debt to the customer's "emotional investment" is so ridiculous that I don't even know where to begin. How about my "emotional investment" in my own time, life, and project? How about we call these debts even and cancel them out, ok?? It's a very generous offer on my part.

Shut up and listen, recruits! You're here because you bought the freaking unfinished game. Is that clear?! You will run and fly and shoot for miles across unfinished gameplay and crash unfinished rocket ships into unfinished AI in the unfinished blistering heat and the unfinished freezing cold AND YOU WILL LIKE IT!

When it gets better, if it gets better, you will enjoy untold benefits! At some point in the future, the freaking game you bought will randomly become more awesome! Is that clear?! Private, that was uncalled for! Drop and give me twenty!

---

So, Cortex Command seems like it might be pretty awesome. I need to buy a gamepad at some point and try some split screen multiplayer.
Logged
Dragonmaw
Guest
« Reply #373 on: December 16, 2010, 08:35:19 PM »

It's not really a matter of how much time there is between game builds, but rather the time between updates. The expectation of purchasing an in-development game is that the player will be kept up-to-date on the game, whether that means builds or simply the developer taking a moment of their time to post a little in a developer log.

I realize that everyone wants to be all artsy-fartsy and talk about how you should take as long as you want, and that public expectations are dumb, but seriously, if you are selling your game then it is a BUSINESS. People expect certain things from business transactions. It's not dumb, they are paying money for a service or, in Cortex Command's case, a promised service (a finished game). It's even more important in a transaction where it is clear that something is unfinished, as putting money into it is seen as an investment. And it's entirely natural for people to want to see their investment going somewhere instead of languishing in development hell.

Personally, I'm not all that upset that Cortex Command hasn't been updated until now, but I think people who are upset at the lack of communication are entirely within their rights as consumers to be upset. They "invested" in the game, after all.

It's not "players dictating your release schedule." You're sliding along a slippery slope there. Players just want to be in the loop about what is going on. You can't play the secretive programmer if you accept pre-orders or in-alpha/beta content. It is working contrary to everything you are trying to do.

If you don't want these entirely reasonable expectations, don't make people pay for your game. Make the beta builds freeware, and the RC and above builds purchase.
Logged
Matthew
Rapture
Administrator
Level 3
******


Milling About


View Profile WWW
« Reply #374 on: December 16, 2010, 09:07:43 PM »

What if it was 58 days - would you've been happy? or 5800 days - 10x as upset? Who is anyone to tell us what our release schedule should be? Seriously, what is your right??

Yes and yes?  I don't understand the trap.

But anyway, it's pretty clear your community is upset by your schedule.  It's true, they have no explicit rights to control your schedule, but then again you have no explicit rights to a community Wink  I think an adversarial tone with customers is a mistake, is all.  You're acting like you've done nothing to deserve ire from anyone, but it's easy for an observer to tell you otherwise.
Logged

Matthew Wegner
Currently: Aztez
Founder, Flashbang Studios
Partner, Indie Fund
Editor, Fun-Motion
Co-Chair, IGF
Impossible
Level 3
***



View Profile
« Reply #375 on: December 16, 2010, 09:15:05 PM »

Fuck the haters, Dan. Take your money and run.
Logged
Data
Giant Enemy Crab
Level 1
*



View Profile WWW
« Reply #376 on: December 16, 2010, 09:36:24 PM »

Matthew, the trap is that it's arbitrary.

I am aware that I have failed to communicate progress, and that it has caused dashed hopes and expectations among the veteran fans.. I already explained, apologized and showed sincere intention to remedy this, both here and directly to the community on the Data Realms forums. Can I get a break now please?
Logged
unsilentwill
Level 9
****


O, the things left unsaid!


View Profile WWW
« Reply #377 on: December 16, 2010, 09:40:13 PM »

Woah, I didn't know these came with soundtracks. Here's more money   Beer!Hand Money Right
Logged

weasello
Level 1
*



View Profile WWW
« Reply #378 on: December 16, 2010, 09:40:18 PM »

Logged

IndieElite4Eva
Matthew
Rapture
Administrator
Level 3
******


Milling About


View Profile WWW
« Reply #379 on: December 16, 2010, 09:44:33 PM »

Arbitrary?  More time = more angst, less time = less angst, unless we're talking units or something.

The last thing I'll say is this:  I don't think the upset people are upset because they paid $X and got the b24 bits in return.  That's a fair trade, yes.  I think they're upset because they've invested a lot of time and energy into the community around the game (mods, evangelizing, etc), and expected to see that energy reflected over in development.  It's true you've never made an explicit obligation to update, but there is no community investment obligation either.  I guess there's some larger point that all communities are bound by implicit contracts, never explicit ones.  I would be wary of finally and irreplaceably breaking the back of your community.

Anyway, I'll shut up now Beer!
Logged

Matthew Wegner
Currently: Aztez
Founder, Flashbang Studios
Partner, Indie Fund
Editor, Fun-Motion
Co-Chair, IGF
Pages: 1 ... 17 18 [19] 20 21 ... 26
Print
Jump to:  

Theme orange-lt created by panic