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[princec]

So... "Overall this thread smells like Indie Gamer poo", and an an innocuous newsy sort of post announcing an indie game gets locked and the discussion's over. While the rest of the board is sort of full of pointless juvenile rubbish, in-crowd cliquey jokes, irrelevant or poorly executed freeware "my-first-game" stuff, Kenta Cho (yawn), etc.

I don't often like to have a rant in public about something that's none of my business, but...

...ya know, TIGSource was about indie gaming once upon a time. Y'know, news about indie games, playing the games, taking the piss about them (good ol' FlamingPear, how I miss him), talking about them, etc. I/we've been around since long before TIGSource turned up. In fact you probably don't even know but I personally rescued TIGSource's sorry ass from vanishing and even used to contribute to it. I'm still here now, still struggling to make even £100 writing games for people to play.

But day by day there's just less news going on, less commentary, and more cliquey irrelevant bullshit that no-one outside of the rather small community really cares about. TIGSource isn't really the "source" any more, it's just another fanboy site. Which is fine, I thought it was about "fans", but it just seems that these "fans" don't seem all that interested in ... dare I say it ... more mainstream indie developments. Am I right here?

So here we are, I'm one of the old guard indie game industry stalwarts, and I think this place just doesn't have anything useful much to offer any more. Is that what the forum wanted?

Sorry if it sounds ranty or whingy, but I am a bit saddened and disappointed that it's not worth being here any more really.

Cas

[Alec]

:D

You really had me going there for a minute.

[team_q]

"You've changed man! You used to be all about the indie, now, all you want is jokes. What happened man?"

Im here because I like the community, I love all the games that are put forward, I show them to my friends. I don't think the forum should be one where "we take the piss out" of other peoples work, I don't think thats constructive. If you just want indie news read the front page, if you want a community of Indie developers and wannabes, trading ideas and other heart warming things, come to the forums.

Serious though, you spam a game, then get but-hurt when people call you out, so you say that everyone else is broken, and things aren't the same as when you were more important.

[deadeye]

Huh.


You know, I think it's kinda strange that there isn't an announcement forum here, too.  It could be locked to manbabies if necessary, but I don't see why a separate forum couldn't be set aside for it.  And if it gets cluttered with crap, then it gets cluttered with crap.  These kinds of things are sort of self-moderating and the crap eventually falls off the front page.

And even if you did let manbabies post their stuff in an announcement forum, the type of people who do hit&run posts are going to be obvious about it and receive their due amount of shit.

And on the plus side, there might be an influx of new blood. 

Also, I don't think veteran members, or even talented manbabies with something good to show should be discouraged from sharing their stuff.  Getting feedback is one thing, but just wanting to share something is another.

That said... princec you shouldn't be putting games on your site if you don't even know who made them and can't give credit, let alone be announcing it here.

Just my two cents.

[Corpus]

Uh, I'm not sure I understand your problem. You knowingly posted a thread which was not only in the wrong forum, but also did not belong in any forum on the website and which, in fact, contradicted the rules of TIGSource.

TIGS is built around its community; without it, it would be, well, crap. If people were allowed just to sign up, pimp their game and disappear, we would be overrun by manbabies and the community would disintegrate. As it is, the policy of 'participate to earn the right to feedback' fosters said community and creates a really awesome atmosphere among the indie devs; as you probably know, it was responsible for the much-publicised sense of fraternity among indie devs at GDC.

As for not seeing the "Source", what on earth do you mean? The frontpage is going as strong as ever, and more members are being welcomed into the ranks than ever, many of whom are producing their own games. Just look at the four pages of VGNG competition entries, ffs. TIGS is a "source" both in terms of being an outlet for indie game news and in terms of being an actual source of games.

Take this, for example: last night, I mentioned on the IRC channel that I didn't have time to make any music for my game. Two musicians, C418 and BaronCid, immediately offered to make some music for me and, an hour or so later, I got a deliciously funky and very high-quality music loop. They didn't expect anything in return, and were happy to help.

TIGSource is, in other words, full of enthusiastic, creative individuals - the only criticism I would level at them, in fact, is that they're often too quick to revile other people for being upon their own arses.

If you're too cool for the tiggers, that's too bad. Don't get butthurt and whine when you're slapped on the wrist for knowingly breaking the rules. Why were you so opposed to getting feedback on your game?

[Derek]

Cas, I'm sorry I said your thread smelled like "Indie Gamer poo."  Next time just pm me about it.

[moi]

I sort of agree with Derek's opinion of not having pure press-release announcement threads like in indiegamer, they're just annoying. Maybe Cas' shouldn't have stated that he didn't want feedback about his game because as he says himself this is not a fanboy site. An announcement IMO is okay if you agree with comments and feedback, otherwise it's just a press release.
But I sort of agree with Cas that the indie-rockstars-looking-at-their-belly button-in-awe threads are also mildly annoying.
It's probably just a midlle ground.
But Overall I think TIGS is fine as it is.

But hey let's everyone burry the hatchet and make peace!
WHY CAN'T WE GET ALONG.

[princec]

Only a few responses I'd like to give really:
1. Don't you be telling me how to run my website
2. If TIGSource isn't the place for people like me to read indie game news or tell other players about new games... then where am I to go? Gametunnel's sort of... stagnated somewhat; DIYgames died years ago; Indiegamer is a *developers* forum (despite its name)... seems there's a hole that needs filling to me
3. I mailed you last Thursday Derek
4. "Rules of TIGSource" my hairy arse. The place is just gradually closing in on itself.

Cas

[Alec]

Hmm just seems like there's lots of people joking around, making games, having a good time. I don't see that as a bad thing.

Cas, it really comes across as if you're mad that you don't get the opportunity to spam your game. Seems weird.

[Corpus]

1. "Hey, you! Bad parent! Stop dipping your child in acid!"
"Don't you be telling me how to be a parent!"

2. Huh? Who said that it isn't the place "for people like you.." etc.? Apologies if that really was said and I missed it. I don't have time to read through the whole thing again.

4. By the "Rules of TIGSource" I meant the rules laid out in... some sticky or another. You keep making vague statements like "The place is just gradually closing in on itself," but I still don't really know what you're saying, or why. If you mean that it's becoming insular, well... I don't see it. And I'm pretty new to the forums! It certainly hasn't seemed insular since I arrived.

But anyway, the issue (as I saw it) was not that you were telling people about your game, it was that you were telling people about your game but refusing feedback; in other words, you were, as moi put it (apologies if I end up twisting your words here, moi), posting a "press release."

Come on, come back to the warm and fuzzy bosom of TIGS.

[Eclipse]

Hmm just seems like there's lots of people joking around, making games, having a good time. I don't see that as a bad thing.

Cas, it really comes across as if you're mad that you don't get the opportunity to spam your game. Seems weird.

I think Cas is not a spammer, I've read other posts and he's (was?) an active user here,  I really don't know what's wrong with his thread :\ i mean, we are here to joke, having a good time, but also make games and show them off somewere aren't we?

Also "Overall this thread smells like Indie Gamer poo", uhm, i'm not an Indie Gamer user, but what's wrong with that? O_o

I agree that people that register only to spam their stuff isn't a nice thing but I feel it was not that case...

I'm glad I've not posted something about one of my finished games before the Circle dev thread to had the same result, also because in the position of Cas I'll be not that friendly :\

I love the TIGsource "feeling" of friendship and people that wants to make games for passion, I've never found anything similar around, that's why that story left a bitter taste on my tongue

[Alec]

The idea is to discourage people who are just looking to get a couple extra hits to their site as opposed to actually becoming part of the community, I believe.

That's why there isn't an announcement forum. Because it'll end up looking like this:
http://forums.indiegamer.com/forumdisplay.php?f=24

Games are now FREE!
PickleJarGames
0 replies

That stuff is just kinda sad to look at.

I don't think any of that actually discourages new folks from joining the site. They're encouraged to post an intro on the introduction thread and post new games to feedback if they want other people to check it out.

[Eclipse]

[...]
I don't think any of that actually discourages new folks from joining the site. They're encouraged to post an intro on the introduction thread and post new games to feedback if they want other people to check it out.

and that's good, but this guy had already about 50 posts, so I can't see what was wrong with his thread...

[Alec]

Since Derek's the one who locked it, he's the only one who can clarify why.

But I think the way Cas reacted in this thread says a lot.

full of pointless juvenile rubbish

He appears to hate this community...

I'm ... still struggling to make even £100 writing games for people to play.

...and he is upset because his business isn't doing well.

It seems to indicate that he wanted a couple more hits off the forums, without actually having to discuss points with any of the people he despises here.

[moi]

I think there were posts a bit too strongly worded on both sides, but that's all.
IMO ultratron 2.0 deserves a thread here definitely (WITH feedback of course).
Cas' reaction is a bit excessive, but that's part of his character. Cas is a nice guy and a great indie dev and TIGS is a great place. Let's not start a flamewar.

[Guert]

As mod of the feedback section, I saw the thread and mentionned it to Derek. I would've locked it myself but Derek did it personaly.  

Now, why would I have locked it you say?

Well, because of this:

Not actually soliciting feedback really, just a heads up to say we just released

If you are not soliciting feedback you don't post it in feedback. If you just want to say you released a game for sale, you are doing a release anouncement. Now I'm not saying that release anouncements are bad but there are no sections for that kind of thing at TIGS. Why? Well just read Derek's and Alec's posts about that topic.

Now I can understand part of his irritation but I feel that his reaction is exactly like what he's irritated about. A bit juvenile.

The games posted by princec, so far, have been of very good quality. If he had asked for feedback, I'm pretty sure the thread would have been at least 2 pages long of both praises and user comments.

In all cases, this thread in general makes me sad. I mean, the community has grown so much in the last year and the general attitude is fun, simple, respectful and relaxed. Heck, the feedback moderator job is a freakin' breeze because of the positive attitute of members. All games get at least a few replies and people react well to "negative" comments. (Kudos to everyone who post there btw )

Anyway I digress... My point is, a bit more tact would have been appreciated from an old member who shows us great games when he can. I know it's hard to sale indie games but a sale is 50% due to the attitude of the seller. Even with the best product, if you don't like how the seller behaves, you don't buy.

Well, I hope this is just a misunderstanding mixed up with a bunch of minor irritations. TIGS ain't perfect but if we work together, we could enhance it

Well, I gotta go.
Take care all!
Cheers!
Guert

 

[princec]

The reason I didn't want feedback for Ultratron is that... it's 2 years old, it's had more feedback than I can shake a stick at, I just wanted to let some gamers know there was a game to play. It's just sort of odd that there's nowhere on TIGSource to do this given what TIGSource was once about. News about indie games for gamers.

Now I really don't want to have to make a long list of links to pointless juvenile posts to make a point but what I'm getting at is that the community here has become more and more insular, self-worshipping and closed. It's no longer generally useful to anyone - developers or gamers. That's not to say there isn't interesting stuff on it, because there is, but that the signal-to-noise ratio has got to a point where what was once a daily check might as well be weekly.

Now, the attitude I had to letting people know about Ultratron's release was: scan all the forums and discover there for some reason wasn't a "hey look here's a game we've made" forum and pick the best fit I could. Fairly harmless and I had thought TIGgers would be interested in it. You could have commented all you liked in the thread but Derek mysteriously locked it, so now you can't give feedback anyway.

For what it's worth, I'm making £100 a month *more* than 99% of the developers in here, and the only reason it's dropped that low is because I took nearly 2 years out after my wife fucked off with a nasty little boy. There are 3 games in the pipeline now and we're set to make a living out of it. Living the dream, baby.

Anyways, high time this thread was locked eh? Hope it's made a few people think about what TIGSource is about. Just look back up at some of the responses here.

Cas

[Alec]

You sound totally bitter and mad at the world.

I hope things work out for you in the end and that you learn that there are other people out there as well.

You know. That you can talk to and stuff without insulting.

[Derek]

Cas, reading all your ranting, it's pretty obvious you have no idea what the site is about or isn't about.  You made a post promoting a 2-year old game of yours where you stated emphatically that you weren't interested in hearing feedback... in THE FEEDBACK FORUM.  So I locked it.  End of story.

People don't come here to read press releases or ads... they come here to have a good time in a supportive community about indie games.  If they want news, they go to the front page, like they always have.  The original site didn't even have forums, so no use talking about the way things were.  (By the way, "good ol' FlamingPear, how I miss him" has been posting on the front page for the past month or so now.)

Anyway, it's obvious you've had some tough times, so I'm sorry to heap more trouble on you.  But, to quote you:

1. Don't you be telling me us how to run my our website

You say the site is getting more insular and closed-off, but we're getting more and more new visitors each day.  And most of them end up staying.  If you feel out of place, then try starting threads that aren't so self-serving.

Locked.  Please take any further issues up with me via e-mail or pm.