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[greekdude247]

Wow. You're completely missing the point. Pretty much all the requests in Unpaid Collaborations are for freeware games. It's extremely rare for someone to ask for help on a commercial game without offering pay of any kind. That's why people are offended by your request.

And those who did request for commercial games, what happened?

[KM]

So, do you guys think that the Unpaid Collaborations is something that should be removed?

There is a place for it, but I think a lot of people miss the point. It should really be for fun stuff no one expects to make any money from, like The Berlin Party Simulator. It's short, funny and probably took 30 minutes to make all the graphics.

But sadly that part of the forum is not used as a place to jam small ideas and make quick fun little games but as a place to look for cheap (free) labour or people just trying to pad their resumes. There's better ways to pad your resume, like making friends and contacts, or working on your skill. This is why there is so little interest in that part of the forum. Who wants to jam with total strangers looking to make money off your hard labour when you can jam with some friends and make a short cool game and have fun doing it?

[pgil]

And those who did request for commercial games, what happened?

 

See: This thread..

[KM]

And those who did request for commercial games, what happened?

See: This thread..

See: This thread..

Fixed. 

[supershigi]

cool! Well then according to KM it actually wasn't 'free'. Accreditation was going to follow anyone who helped.

Accreditation only matters if having their name on the game (and being able to put it on their resume) actually helps the musician (as is the case with certain internships).  Having their name on your game does no more for them than working on a freeware game or mod.

[greekdude247]

Having their name on your game does no more for them than working on a freeware game or mod.

Whaat?!? Working on a freeware game or mod is great for a resume!! Having your named in the credits of a full game is also great for a resume!

[supershigi]

Having their name on your game does no more for them than working on a freeware game or mod.

Whaat?!? Working on a freeware game or mod is great for a resume!! Having your named in the credits of a full game is also great for a resume!

I think you're kind of missing the point.  Yes, working on a joint project with other people does give you experience.  Being part of a finished game also gives you experience.  However:

1.) Freeware games and mods don't make money.  Freeware games and mods are not examples of cases where one member of the development team makes money, while the rest of the people who helped to create the assets get nothing.

2.) For a musician, the benefit of having their name on your game in particular does not outweigh the fact that they're making you assets completely free of charge while you make money off of said assets.

At the end of the day, you'd still be making money off of someone else's hard work despite the fact that you wouldn't be willing to pay them... and the experience they gain from your project could be easily obtained on other projects where the developers aren't trying to screw the musician out of payment on a commercial game (a.k.a. freeware, mods, or even a personal album). 

I understand that your intention is not to anger the musicians or take advantage of people, but I think it's important for you to see that it's quite frowned upon in both the indie community and in the game industry in general to ask for free assets when your game is slated to make money (and when you aren't in a position to be offering unpaid internships because the musician doesn't directly learn anything from you or gain an equivalent amount of clout based upon having their name attached to your project).  It's both unprofessional and disrespectful.

[greekdude247]

Having their name on your game does no more for them than working on a freeware game or mod.

Whaat?!? Working on a freeware game or mod is great for a resume!! Having your named in the credits of a full game is also great for a resume!

I think you're kind of missing the point.  Yes, working on a joint project with other people does give you experience.  Being part of a finished game also gives you experience.  However:

1.) Freeware games and mods don't make money.  Freeware games and mods are not examples of cases where one member of the development team makes money, while the rest of the people who helped to create the assets get nothing.

2.) For a musician, the benefit of having their name on your game in particular does not outweigh the fact that they're making you assets completely free of charge while you make money off of said assets.

At the end of the day, you'd still be making money off of someone else's hard work despite the fact that you wouldn't be willing to pay them... and the experience they gain from your project could be easily obtained on other projects where the developers aren't trying to screw the musician out of payment on a commercial game (a.k.a. freeware, mods, or even a personal album).

That's a very bold statement. I know plenty of people who have worked for companies on commercial games as interns and just plain no-pay stand ins and not gotten a dime out of the project. They did it because they wanted to. Hell, I've done it plenty of times!

[supershigi]

That's a very bold statement. I know plenty of people who have worked for companies on commercial games as interns and just plain no-pay stand ins and not gotten a dime out of the project. They did it because they wanted to. Hell, I've done it plenty of times!

You seem to be completely missing my point.  Of course working for an established company as an unpaid intern is a good source of experience.  But you are not an established company, nor are you an established indie developer.  I don't really see how you can justify making money off of other people's work.

And just for the record, in my first post in this thread I elaborated in detail about exactly what you mentioned:

It would be a different story if you were established and offering unpaid internships... at least in that case the composer could have something significant to put on their resume in exchange for the work they did.  My first job was unpaid, but the company I worked with is an established company... having that on my resume helped me get a ton of subsequent paid jobs (not to mention that the first company paid me for every project I did with them after the first).

You basically have to ask yourself: Given that you're going to be making money, do you have anything to offer your musician in exchange for their hard work?  Is putting your game in particular on their resume going to net them enough future work to justify working for you for free?  I honestly doubt it.

[greekdude247]

You doubt it? Please tell me why you doubt it. I think its amazing how you could tell what my project is that you can say that this game is not worth putting on your resume. Now, I'm not saying it is, but all your arguments are based on some random value you've assigned to my work. I'm astounded that someone would say such a thing on literally no information. Its such a negative thing to do. Assuming really doesn't help anyone.

[supershigi]

How about you tell us why a musician should work for you for free. 

I'm not making any assumptions about your game.  I am however taking the stance that you have yet to make a compelling argument for why you deserve free music.  I've also yet to see a compelling argument concerning why your game in particular will give a musician enough experience to outweigh the fact that they wouldn't be paid for creating a significant amount original assets for your commercial game.

So one more time: Why should a musician work for you for free when you are planning on making money off of their work? 

[greekdude247]

How about you tell us why a musician should work for you for free. 

I'm not making any assumptions about your game.  I am however taking the stance that you have yet to make a compelling argument for why you deserve free music.  I've also yet to see a compelling argument concerning why your game in particular will give a musician enough experience to outweigh the fact that they wouldn't be paid for contributing a significant amount of work towards a commercial game. 

But you ARE making assumptions about my work. And I'm not going to tell you why I think my game is worth someone helping, because that would be something private between someone interested in working on the project and myself. And if I really told you, do you really think anything would convince you? We all think our ideas are great. Other wise we'd throw them away. What would we both gain by you judging if my game is worth someone else's time. That's not up to you. I'm not on some crusade now to prove to you, or anyone else, that my game is the best game ever and people should work for free and kiss my ring because I'm so freakin smart. All I did was ask where I could find free music.

[supershigi]

So basically you aren't going to tell us why you think you deserve free music for your commercial game.  Got it. 

And just for the record, this has nothing to with the merit of your ideas.  And not a single person in this thread passed judgement on your ideas, or made assumptions about your game.  Your game could very well end up being quite successful, but then we're back at the same point: why would you not be willing to give the musician a small royalty for their hard work?  People here have already explained to you how to do it.  You don't need a lawyer, it's not complicated, and it's fair.  Simple as that.

But I guess you're somehow above all of the other established developers who have already created successful games and yet still feel the need to compensate their musicians.  I guess your idea is so incredibly awesome that the only one who deserves to be compensated for their work is you.  Hmm... doesn't make sense to me, but if that's how you roll, it is your choice at the end of the day.  Just don't expect a lot of folks to be cool with that kind of pompous mentality here or elsewhere.

[greekdude247]

The musician for my game is getting 100% of all the finances.

[pgil]

And I'm not going to tell you why I think my game is worth someone helping, because that would be something private between someone interested in working on the project and myself.

Yeah.. Good luck finding help with that attitude. 

[KM]

There's just so many thinsg to pick apart in this thread that I am honestly overwhelmed with the choices. 

I'll probably start with social proofing, but I'm gonna have to set aside an amount of time to get it all written out in a post. :/

[greekdude247]

There's just so many thinsg to pick apart in this thread that I am honestly overwhelmed with the choices. 

I'll probably start with social proofing, but I'm gonna have to set aside an amount of time to get it all written out in a post. :/

Please plan out my crucifixion as best as possible.

[KM]

There's just so many thinsg to pick apart in this thread that I am honestly overwhelmed with the choices. 

I'll probably start with social proofing, but I'm gonna have to set aside an amount of time to get it all written out in a post. :/

Please plan out my crucifixion as best as possible.

  Oh most certainly. I am of course a gentleman and a scholar, by nature. I take but the utmost care in my public social floggings.

That or I can just point out you're trying to argue with someone who's not only part of the game dev business, but won numerous awards for her soundtrack on a famous game and also has experience moving up the ladder of being a working musician. She has experience and the proof of the experience. You on the other hand have provided no proof of your experiences at all. But you have provided us with an experience of your outcome of your experiences, which we don't approve is a good outcome.

You can stay defensive on your beliefs or you can take the advice at face value, judge it for worth and possibly accept it.

Snide comments don't really help your case, neither does polarizing. It makes you look immature. </lazy rebuttal>

[greekdude247]

My opinion has changed. Next time, on a commercial game, I will offer anyone who helps me a percentage of the profits. I will no longer just offer only accreditation.

[mirosurabu]

You have no proof you will make a game that will help musician get a name for himself. You are not 'established' indie. You have no portfolio, I haven't heard of you, we haven't heard of you. Whereas, established companies are 'established', they have proof.

Got it? You probably got it by this time.

You want quality content, pay for it.