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October 01, 2014, 08:22:16 PM
TIGSource ForumsPlayerGamesTale of Tale's "Over Games" Presentation
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Author Topic: Tale of Tale's "Over Games" Presentation  (Read 29512 times)
AshfordPride
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« on: August 25, 2010, 04:13:24 PM »

http://tale-of-tales.com/tales/OverGames.html

Tale of Tale's delivers an unremarkable and self-important presentation about the sort of despicable, ass-backwards videogames that they seem to delight in subjecting the indie game community with. 

So, let's open our lecture with explaining how much better we are than everyone else.  Oh, no, please don't misunderstand us!  We are not rebeling against anything, or wish to step on anyone's toes!  We simply wish to make better video games than that tripe that's been shat out for decades.  Y'know, the past few decades of games that we didn't find entertaining enough, beautiful enough, or overall GOOD enough for our unfoundedly high standards.  We're making games for the people who will enjoy them.  Sort of like how scat fetishists need people to make porn for them.  Hey man, see a need, fill a need.

And then there's the veritable Ghosts of Video Game's past where Tale of Tale's takes the time to pat themselves on the back for all their great strides in the world of making terrible games you bought on Steam for five dollars.  I do like how they list exactly what the point of each game was, so it can be immediately answered with a "No, that's not what this was at all" or a "Why would you ever want to make that?  That's terrible."

And then here it comes.

Holy shit, have we defied enough conventions yet, because BACK THE FUCK UP HERE IT COMES

VIDEO GAMES ARE NOT ART

Is your head still in one piece, or did I just blow it into a thousand pieces? 

Tale of Tale's assert that anything with a brain enjoys playing games.  The problem with this is that they don't seem to draw any sort of parallels between the sort of natural games people have been playing for thousands of years, and electronic video games.  It would be at this time that a normal, sane person would point out that people play games because they are fun.  Because they provide challenge.   Because they're a fun way for people to interact together.  Because they're the s-oh wait, these are the people who made The Path, so, why the fuck would they point this out if they seem to make games that contradict this notion?

In fact, they could fully justify themselves for making such awful games here.  They could say that video games are made to be amusement, while their games are meant to be art.  It's stupid, sure, but it's better than the tidal wave of derp that's about to cascade upon me.  What they describe when they describe art seems to be the nature of their games.  Ruleless and goalless, relatively speaking.

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The modernist program of the previous century has eradicated all human aspiration for greatness.

TALE OF TALES SAID THIS

WITH ABSOLUTELY NO IRONY

WITH ABSOLUTELY NO CONSIDERATION FOR WHAT THEY ARE

See, this is the sort of shit that warrants me to dismiss this shit with a .gif image and hope that the lot of you have enough sense to agree with me.

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Modernist art has collaborated in this dehumanization of society. At first it was fresh and welcome. A healthy criticism of values that people might have been taking for granted too easily. But slowly the rebellion turned into canon, the revolutionaries started frequenting the salons and the rebels turned into the new bourgeois. At the end of the century, the artists found themselves in a golden cage, safely disconnected from society and spinning around in an endless loop of self-mockery and clever irony.

This is the sort of shit I should be saying to describe THEM.  They say shit like this and then they assert that these people are the enemy, instead of the staff of their company.  That THEY are the ones who are seeking to regain the pure essence of art.  With the goddamn Graveyard.

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All experts, many of whom are gathered in this room, agree that, in general, videogames are not as good as non-videogames.

THIS SHIT WARRANTS VERY LITTLE MORE THAN SNIDE COMMENTS AND FUNNY DISMISSIVE GIFS

They purpose that not everyone plays video games, but everyone seems to enjoy all other sorts of media.  Now, here comes the hilarity, they insist that the reason why everyone on Earth isn't playing video games out there is because about 80% of the world is waiting for Tale of Tales to create a video game where you character moves even more slowly and cumbersomely in order to accomplish absolutely nothing.  Yes, it's not because of complex controls, lack of money and materials, or general disability.  Oh no, it's because they are just waiting eagerly for someone to make the sort of video game they want.  Then, and only then, will they run to the store with a smile on their face, secure in the fact that they will be able to enjoy video games.

Bullshit.  This is like claiming that not all people read books, not because of illiteracy, but because they just aren't interested in the sort of books available at the time.

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Despite a few noble attempts, overall, videogames are empty systems that only serve the purpose of wasting time.

If they're just going to flip off video games here, then I'd just like to deliver a 'fuck-you' right back.  Let's continue to dismiss the philistine efforts of our ancestors in video games for ONLY making fantastic video games that were enjoyable.  THEY don't understand the true nature of video games like a small fringe group of maniacs truly do! 

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Videogames are fun. They nurture our inner child.
 

SAYS THE CREATOR OF THE GRAVEYARD AND THE PATH AND MANY OTHER FINE FUN AND INNER CHILD NURTURING PRODUCTS.

THE WORLD IS IN FLAMES

A CHILD LETS GO OF HIS BALLOON TO AN UNASSUMING BREEZE

AN ELDERLY MAN SLOWLY BREATHS IN TIME TO THE BEEPING OF AN ARTIFICIAL RESPIRATOR

THE THING FROM CLU CLU LAND FLIPS A PANEL AND FORMS THE SHAPE OF A SUBMARINE

And here is where the article just shits itself retarded.  Where Tale of Tale's trots it's high horse onto a soap box and attempts a treacherous balancing act where they condemn HUMANITY ITSELF for, uh, not buying enough copies of the Graveyard, I guess...

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The computer offers us an enormously versatile technology that can help us cope with our problematic lives in clever and beautiful ways.

YES, THEY ARE CALLED FUN TIME WASTING VIDEO GAMES, HAVE YOU HEARD OF THEM? 

And then they proceed to pretty much say shit like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tq3bXwVPChQ until they sort of burn out.  NO LONGER WILL BE DO THIS THING.  NO LONGER WILL WE EAT MUSHROOMS AND GET BIG BECAUSE IN REAL LIFE THATS NOT HOW IT WORKS AT ALL.  NO LONGER WILL WE LOOK FOR A CAKE BECAUSE THE CAKE IS A LIE XD!!!!!  They pretty much assert here that one day we will be able to do the things in video games, except without the stuff that made them fun.

So there you go.  There you fucking go.  I would have been more than happy to have someone point out this was an old article, locked it, and then I would've moved on.  We all could have moved on from this shit, and just had a nice laugh about how far up their own ass Tale of Tales has repeatedly RAMMED their head.  But no, here we fucking go.

tl;dr

« Last Edit: August 26, 2010, 01:53:28 PM by AshfordPride » Logged
C.A. Silbereisen
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« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2010, 04:41:14 PM »



This has more 'tude than all 90's cartoons I grew up with combined. Not sure if that's a good or a bad thing. I was strangely unaffected by it.
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ஒழுக்கின்மை
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« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2010, 04:57:19 PM »

i'm pretty sure this was posted here a while ago, no need to make identical topics about the same article...
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« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2010, 05:11:48 PM »

its irony

you guys arent artistic enough to get it
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Carrie Nation
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« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2010, 05:16:33 PM »

"But guys what about that whole post they made where they said games were not art?"

"Shut up I need a reason to feel superior to somebody"
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deathtotheweird
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« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2010, 05:22:22 PM »

AshfordPride is quickly becoming my least favorite poster.
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« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2010, 05:27:37 PM »

AshfordPride is quickly becoming my least favorite poster.
What do you mean he posted a FUNNY GIF that makes him a FUNNY PERSON right?

HAHA LOOK HE USED THE GIF TO MEAN WHEN HE READ THIS HE SMILED AND WALKED AWAY.

HAHA
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ஒழுக்கின்மை
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« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2010, 05:44:35 PM »

AshfordPride is quickly becoming my least favorite poster.

oh yeah isn't this the guy who argued for pages that we were wrong if we liked limbo at all
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deathtotheweird
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« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2010, 07:18:14 PM »

can't remember, dont think I followed that thread. but he's also the guy who that stupid canabalt thread (which I think was one of his first posts)

he seems very angry and annoying, he should take his shitty posting habits back to 4chan or wherever the fuck he came from
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« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2010, 07:59:09 PM »

You have to admit though, that introductory paragraph on the presentation makes me want to slap someone in the face.(and the rest looks even worse but I didn't read it)
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« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2010, 12:46:32 AM »

AshfordPride is quickly becoming my least favorite poster.

oh yeah isn't this the guy who argued for pages that we were wrong if we liked limbo at all
Did the same with Canabalt too.
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« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2010, 01:16:45 AM »

I still like that gif.
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« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2010, 01:30:09 AM »

50 Cent Blood On The Sand is better than anything by ToT. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqcgXsCsDhU
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« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2010, 02:27:24 AM »


Wow. Only the first 6 minutes of the game and nothing makes any sense. Why does 50 Cent wear grenades on the stage? Why does it turn into Indiana Jones with a diamond covered skull? Why does Lara Croft suddenly show up? Why is the player character annoying as hell? Why is there a quicktime event only 10 seconds into the game? It's a joke, right? Tell me it's a joke. Beg

As to Tale of Tales; looks like they're up to their old tricks -- only looking at the AAA FPS shooters to prove their point, instead of looking at the many games that actually do all the things they claim no games are trying to do. *sigh*
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« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2010, 07:04:39 AM »

Don't forget the generic polar bear floating on broken piece of sea ice.
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« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2010, 09:48:25 AM »

Wow. Only the first 6 minutes of the game and nothing makes any sense. Why does 50 Cent wear grenades on the stage? Why does it turn into Indiana Jones with a diamond covered skull? Why does Lara Croft suddenly show up? Why is the player character annoying as hell? Why is there a quicktime event only 10 seconds into the game? It's a joke, right? Tell me it's a joke. Beg
I dunno, this is pretty much the gaming equivalent of exploitation cinema, meaning it was probably a whole lot of fun to develop, especially for whoever's responsible for the story.
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Melly
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« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2010, 11:01:48 AM »

Ashford, maybe you'd start lifting your stigma around here if instead of making pathetic attempts at 'internet humor' you would start your threads with something more thoughtful and that would encourage a better discussion. Without devolving into childish rage, that is.
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AshfordPride
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« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2010, 12:18:40 PM »

Ashford, maybe you'd start lifting your stigma around here if instead of making pathetic attempts at 'internet humor' you would start your threads with something more thoughtful and that would encourage a better discussion. Without devolving into childish rage, that is.



Melly, I'd like to legitimately apologize on this one.  I was looking through Anna Anthropy's Formspring when I found this.  I didn't realize it was a few months old, my friend told me it was new.  Looking at the page now, I see that it's clearly dated.  Clearly dated about seven months ago.  I figured I was just posting something new.

My mistake, I feel very foolish about all this. 

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Nate Kling
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« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2010, 12:46:43 PM »

I don't think Melly isn't necessarily addressing what you posted but how and why you posted it.  You posted a link to an article which is pretty provocative and makes a lot of claims whether you agree with them or not.  TIGSource is a place where we can discuss and debate subjects like this intelligently not just "I thought this was stupid and I laughed at it".  Many of us don't like to see posts contributing nothing to discussion and I think that Tale of Tale's argument is strong and delivered well enough that it warrants more discussion than to be dismissed with a gif image.
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« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2010, 07:04:44 PM »

With all due respect, Nate K, I don't think there's a single intelligent thing in the article to debate. Damn near everything in it is wrong. If I didn't know how horribly serious ToT is I'd think it was some kind of joke, and if tomorrow Michael Samyn came out and said his entire game making career was all a hilarious prank I'd be the one laughing the hardest. It would be a genius troll the likes of which hasn't been executed since Andy Kaufman.

Just gonna pick on a couple random points. I feel pretty confident that if you told me to pick apart anything on the page, I could. If you need me to elaborate I can.

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Perhaps these are species that are naturally aggressive as well as smart enough to realize that playful competition benefits their survival. To achieve that purpose, competition obviously needs to be fair. So they make up rules. And games are born.

One hundred percent absurd pseudoscientific bullshit. "playful competition benefits their survival", though we're reluctant to explain how or why. NOT engaging in playful competition doesn't seem to put less aggressive and less intelligent creatures at a disadvantage. And competition does not need to be "fair", in fact it never is, fairness itself is an abstraction. Rules do not beget fairness, either, in fact, rules can make things LESS fair, and often that's the point of them.

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There's no goal that does not evaporate as soon as it is discovered.

No, what the hell. How do you "discover" a goal? You SET goals, and then you overcome them. The goal doesn't "evaporate" and you don't "discover" it. It's an IDEA.

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Art enables us to see the mystery in the mundane and to recognize the unfamiliar. Art is a conscious act of an author who seeks to communicate with an audience in a language without grammar, in a structure that is undefined with no predetermined goal and no rewards but finding yourself.

I used to do this in my core English class. I spoke in a language without grammar in an undefined structure with no predetermined goal. I got an A because everyone else in my class was illiterate, but what I wrote was meaningless. Just like the above quote.

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There are no rules in art that cannot be broken.

Robert Frost once said of "free verse" poetry that it was "like playing tennis without a net". Which is interesting, because this implies that to Frost, art... was like... a GAME? Epileptic

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videogames are not games
Facepalm

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We play a game once in a while. But it's a lighthearted activity that we can easily abandon when more important things come along. Not so videogames. We spend hours with these things!

Yeah, I know right? Non-video games are never serious, especially not to people like Michael Jordan, Kasparov, or the multitude of athletes who casually and lightheartedly compete in the olympics every two years.

 
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All experts, many of whom are gathered in this room, agree that, in general, videogames are not as good as non-videogames. Chess and Go are still considered unrivaled.

BUT WHAAAAT ABOUT VIRTUAL CHESS? Also note we are comparing Pac Man to Chess, here, not Monopoly to Starcraft. The reason Chess and Go are deeper and more complex than video games are so mainly because THEY HAVE BEEN AROUND MUCH, MUCH LONGER. It's not because they're GAMES and video games somehow aren't. Ultimately, video games are just simulations, and all simulations are games.

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The old media, with their one-way communication and linear formats have ceased to suffice. The complexity of the world has spiralled out of anything that they can handle.

IT'S TRUE, I CAN'T READ.

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What can we do? We need a medium that is interactive, a medium that can generate realities, a medium that is not linear! Is there such a thing?

WHY? WHEN DID THIS START? WHY DO WE NEED TO PLAY JUMPSTART 3RD GRADE TO GET THE NEWS?

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It promised it would become bigger and friendlier. That it would let women play too and elderly people. And it kept its promise! It allowed us to create pacifiers and candy.

Why would you ever think women and elderly people would be a sign that video games are getting better? They never go near the very best games ever created! No, they're a sign that the bar has been LOWERED. So, yes, pacifiers and candy. But it's not like I ever met a woman who read Nietzsche anyway.

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When they say that one day, we will be playing instead of reading or watching or listening.

I hope to GOD this never happens, it would be the stupidest thing since Twitter.

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* The "make love, notgames" motto was first proposed by Erik Svedäng on the Notgames forum.

Oh yeah, he made Blueberry Garden, right? Figures.

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The idea is to explore the potential of digital entertainment and art that is not games.

This is ridiculous, as well. It's actually the MOST ridiculous thing here. Here's how it happened. ToT made really awful garbage like The Graveyard and The Path, and then some idiots who were still smart enough to find the games repulsive tried to insult them by saying "THIS ISN'T EVEN A GAME!" But of course, they failed at insulting ToT, and they instilled in them a great falsehood, a falsehood that would become ToT's maxim. "THESE ARE NOT GAMES!"

For you see, Tale of Tales has always made games. Awful games, but games all the same. They are creating weak, boring little games and are trying to hide this fact behind retarded artfag storylines, ugly visuals, and frustrating, unintuitive mechanics. By saying that what they make is NOT GEAMS, they're trying to create an excuse to avoid being criticized for what awful games they're releasing. By calling them NOT GAEMZ, they think they're making something BETTER. But they really just don't know anything about games. They're just trying to do what I did to get an A in English 101.
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I had an idea for a game once.
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