Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

 
Advanced search

890657 Posts in 33509 Topics- by 24748 Members - Latest Member: CherrySlug

June 17, 2013, 09:59:21 PM
TIGSource ForumsPlayerGamesTale of Tale's "Over Games" Presentation
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 17
Print
Author Topic: Tale of Tale's "Over Games" Presentation  (Read 22996 times)
C.A. Sinner
man of wealth & taste
Global Moderator
Level 10
******


dmloish srs cultru


View Profile WWW
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2010, 09:48:25 AM »

Wow. Only the first 6 minutes of the game and nothing makes any sense. Why does 50 Cent wear grenades on the stage? Why does it turn into Indiana Jones with a diamond covered skull? Why does Lara Croft suddenly show up? Why is the player character annoying as hell? Why is there a quicktime event only 10 seconds into the game? It's a joke, right? Tell me it's a joke. Beg
I dunno, this is pretty much the gaming equivalent of exploitation cinema, meaning it was probably a whole lot of fun to develop, especially for whoever's responsible for the story.
Logged

Melly
Level 10
*****


This is how being from "da hood" is like, right?


View Profile
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2010, 11:01:48 AM »

Ashford, maybe you'd start lifting your stigma around here if instead of making pathetic attempts at 'internet humor' you would start your threads with something more thoughtful and that would encourage a better discussion. Without devolving into childish rage, that is.
Logged

Feel free to disregard the above.
Games: Minus / Action Escape Kitty
Samtagonist
Level 7
**


It was my privilege.


View Profile
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2010, 12:18:40 PM »

Ashford, maybe you'd start lifting your stigma around here if instead of making pathetic attempts at 'internet humor' you would start your threads with something more thoughtful and that would encourage a better discussion. Without devolving into childish rage, that is.



Melly, I'd like to legitimately apologize on this one.  I was looking through Anna Anthropy's Formspring when I found this.  I didn't realize it was a few months old, my friend told me it was new.  Looking at the page now, I see that it's clearly dated.  Clearly dated about seven months ago.  I figured I was just posting something new.

My mistake, I feel very foolish about all this. 

Logged
Nate Kling
Pixelhead
Level 9
******


Caliber9

nkling00@gmail.com n8klng
View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2010, 12:46:43 PM »

I don't think Melly isn't necessarily addressing what you posted but how and why you posted it.  You posted a link to an article which is pretty provocative and makes a lot of claims whether you agree with them or not.  TIGSource is a place where we can discuss and debate subjects like this intelligently not just "I thought this was stupid and I laughed at it".  Many of us don't like to see posts contributing nothing to discussion and I think that Tale of Tale's argument is strong and delivered well enough that it warrants more discussion than to be dismissed with a gif image.
Logged

Anarkex
Level 0
***


Still dope.


View Profile Email
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2010, 07:04:44 PM »

With all due respect, Nate K, I don't think there's a single intelligent thing in the article to debate. Damn near everything in it is wrong. If I didn't know how horribly serious ToT is I'd think it was some kind of joke, and if tomorrow Michael Samyn came out and said his entire game making career was all a hilarious prank I'd be the one laughing the hardest. It would be a genius troll the likes of which hasn't been executed since Andy Kaufman.

Just gonna pick on a couple random points. I feel pretty confident that if you told me to pick apart anything on the page, I could. If you need me to elaborate I can.

Quote
Perhaps these are species that are naturally aggressive as well as smart enough to realize that playful competition benefits their survival. To achieve that purpose, competition obviously needs to be fair. So they make up rules. And games are born.

One hundred percent absurd pseudoscientific bullshit. "playful competition benefits their survival", though we're reluctant to explain how or why. NOT engaging in playful competition doesn't seem to put less aggressive and less intelligent creatures at a disadvantage. And competition does not need to be "fair", in fact it never is, fairness itself is an abstraction. Rules do not beget fairness, either, in fact, rules can make things LESS fair, and often that's the point of them.

Quote
There's no goal that does not evaporate as soon as it is discovered.

No, what the hell. How do you "discover" a goal? You SET goals, and then you overcome them. The goal doesn't "evaporate" and you don't "discover" it. It's an IDEA.

Quote
Art enables us to see the mystery in the mundane and to recognize the unfamiliar. Art is a conscious act of an author who seeks to communicate with an audience in a language without grammar, in a structure that is undefined with no predetermined goal and no rewards but finding yourself.

I used to do this in my core English class. I spoke in a language without grammar in an undefined structure with no predetermined goal. I got an A because everyone else in my class was illiterate, but what I wrote was meaningless. Just like the above quote.

Quote
There are no rules in art that cannot be broken.

Robert Frost once said of "free verse" poetry that it was "like playing tennis without a net". Which is interesting, because this implies that to Frost, art... was like... a GAME? Epileptic

Quote
videogames are not games
Facepalm

Quote
We play a game once in a while. But it's a lighthearted activity that we can easily abandon when more important things come along. Not so videogames. We spend hours with these things!

Yeah, I know right? Non-video games are never serious, especially not to people like Michael Jordan, Kasparov, or the multitude of athletes who casually and lightheartedly compete in the olympics every two years.

 
Quote
All experts, many of whom are gathered in this room, agree that, in general, videogames are not as good as non-videogames. Chess and Go are still considered unrivaled.

BUT WHAAAAT ABOUT VIRTUAL CHESS? Also note we are comparing Pac Man to Chess, here, not Monopoly to Starcraft. The reason Chess and Go are deeper and more complex than video games are so mainly because THEY HAVE BEEN AROUND MUCH, MUCH LONGER. It's not because they're GAMES and video games somehow aren't. Ultimately, video games are just simulations, and all simulations are games.

Quote
The old media, with their one-way communication and linear formats have ceased to suffice. The complexity of the world has spiralled out of anything that they can handle.

IT'S TRUE, I CAN'T READ.

Quote
What can we do? We need a medium that is interactive, a medium that can generate realities, a medium that is not linear! Is there such a thing?

WHY? WHEN DID THIS START? WHY DO WE NEED TO PLAY JUMPSTART 3RD GRADE TO GET THE NEWS?

Quote
It promised it would become bigger and friendlier. That it would let women play too and elderly people. And it kept its promise! It allowed us to create pacifiers and candy.

Why would you ever think women and elderly people would be a sign that video games are getting better? They never go near the very best games ever created! No, they're a sign that the bar has been LOWERED. So, yes, pacifiers and candy. But it's not like I ever met a woman who read Nietzsche anyway.

Quote
When they say that one day, we will be playing instead of reading or watching or listening.

I hope to GOD this never happens, it would be the stupidest thing since Twitter.

Quote
* The "make love, notgames" motto was first proposed by Erik Svedäng on the Notgames forum.

Oh yeah, he made Blueberry Garden, right? Figures.

Quote
The idea is to explore the potential of digital entertainment and art that is not games.

This is ridiculous, as well. It's actually the MOST ridiculous thing here. Here's how it happened. ToT made really awful garbage like The Graveyard and The Path, and then some idiots who were still smart enough to find the games repulsive tried to insult them by saying "THIS ISN'T EVEN A GAME!" But of course, they failed at insulting ToT, and they instilled in them a great falsehood, a falsehood that would become ToT's maxim. "THESE ARE NOT GAMES!"

For you see, Tale of Tales has always made games. Awful games, but games all the same. They are creating weak, boring little games and are trying to hide this fact behind retarded artfag storylines, ugly visuals, and frustrating, unintuitive mechanics. By saying that what they make is NOT GEAMS, they're trying to create an excuse to avoid being criticized for what awful games they're releasing. By calling them NOT GAEMZ, they think they're making something BETTER. But they really just don't know anything about games. They're just trying to do what I did to get an A in English 101.
Logged

I had an idea for a game once.
The Monster King
Level 10
*****


FRKUC im ALWAYS ANGRY AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAnerd


View Profile Email
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2010, 07:37:32 PM »

i agree with the angry guys but only because i haven't read the whole article and only their quotes

tale of tale's does sound like a bunch of pretentious wankers

i'll read it too later i guess it looks fun
Logged
Paul Eres
Level 10
*****


Also known as RinkuHero.

RinkuHero
View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2010, 08:15:37 PM »

i don't agree with a lot of what ToT wrote there, but i found Anarkex's "rebuttal" to be extremely weak and unfair, picking apart things for stupid reasons. any article could be attacked the way he did there, by a) pointing out differences in words between how they use words and how you use words, and b) comparing what they say to commonly believed things and then claiming that what they say is obviously wrong because it isn't commonly believed.

it's like, that really isn't how you argue against something intelligently, anarkex. there are far more sensible reasons to object to the ToT article than petty disputes about whether you should use the word "discover" or "accomplish" to denote a goal that has been reached. remember that english isn't michael's first language, and using discover rather than accomplish to denote a goal that has been reached is probably a language barrier thing.

so yeah, i don't see much difference between that wall of text anarkex wrote and "I thought this was stupid and I laughed at it" type posts, he didn't really give them the benefit or the doubt or make a decent effort in seeing things from their perspective, he just mocked them while pretending to argue against them

i think in general we should have more respect for fellow indie game developers, regardless of their opinions, and quit acting like fundamentalists when we see things we don't agree with
Logged

Phasma Felis
Level 1
*


View Profile
« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2010, 08:24:47 PM »

What bugs me most about this is that they've got some decent points buried in there about the potential of video games, the increasingly narrow focus of mainstream developers, and what indies should do about it all. Nothing that hasn't been said before, but still worth talking about.

And then they bury it in such patently absurd pay-attention-to-me silliness that it actively destroys anything useful they had to say. I literally laughed out loud at their giant GAMES ARE NOT ART title card. How look-at-me-I'm-saying-something-controversial can you get? And then VIDEOGAMES ARE NOT GAMES while simultaneously video games are just bad games, EXPERTS AGREE, experts wouldn't lie to you would they? Not experts! And then "The modernist program of the previous century has eradicated all human aspiration for greatness", which made me laugh out loud again. I know art and literary criticism has its own vocabulary, I know it doesn't always make sense to outsiders, but that is gibberish.

Sigh.
Logged
Samtagonist
Level 7
**


It was my privilege.


View Profile
« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2010, 08:31:47 PM »

it's like, that really isn't how you argue against something intelligently, anarkex. there are far more sensible reasons to object to the ToT article than petty disputes about whether you should use the word "discover" or "accomplish" to denote a goal that has been reached. remember that english isn't michael's first language, and using discover rather than accomplish to denote a goal that has been reached is probably a language barrier thing.

You'll have to excuse him, he was channeling his inner Icycalm.  

Quote
i think in general we should have more respect for fellow indie game developers, regardless of their opinions

Why does it always come back to this?  It makes it completely impossible for us to get anything done around here.  Why should we have to respect an unfounded opinion that completely contradicts the way we feel.  That's downright offensive.

Quote
so yeah, i don't see much difference between that wall of text anarkex wrote and "I thought this was stupid and I laughed at it" type posts,

WALL OF TEXT

TL;DR

HEY ANARKEX IF YOU WANTED TO SAY SOMETHING IMPORTANT YOU PROBABLY SHOULDVE JUST POSTED A FUNNY PICTURE BECAUSE THATS WHAT WE WANT OH WAIT ITS NOT BUT NOW IT IS AND NOW ITS NOT AND YOU CAN NEVER WIN JUST GIVE UP WE RUN THIS FORUM HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Logged
increpare
Guest
« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2010, 08:33:10 PM »

Anarkex, you understand that taking dogmatic assertions that you feel are unreasonable and opposing them with dogmatic assertions of your own is, while not necessarily an invalid argumentative tactic, not particularly healthy for discussion forums.
Logged
Paul Eres
Level 10
*****


Also known as RinkuHero.

RinkuHero
View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #25 on: August 26, 2010, 08:39:41 PM »

actually i'd expect people would get a lot more done through mutual respect than through mutual hatred -- even members of the US senate of opposite parties, although they are different parties and have very different viewpoints, still show great respect for another. you don't really see a republican senator calling a democratic senator (or vice versa) things as bad as you guys have been calling ToT (but that's probably in part because they don't hide behind fake internet names on forums).

of course, ToT have been guilty of this as well as the people here, they've called people names and treated others with disrespect sometimes too, saying things like (paraphrased) 'nerds aren't creative, programming destroys creativity, the reason games are so bad is because they're made by nerds' and so on (which has truth to it but was still expressed aggressively). but they seem to be getting better at that in recent years.

so what i'm basically saying is, making fun of people isn't conductive of convincing them that they're wrong. usually making fun of people is a way to convince yourself that you are right.
Logged

Samtagonist
Level 7
**


It was my privilege.


View Profile
« Reply #26 on: August 26, 2010, 08:41:41 PM »

Dogmas dogmating dogmas

Anarkex is a despicable angry baby that wants video games to remain in their awkward, pimply-faced teenage phase.  You'll have to excuse him, he's rather slow in the mind.

He should've taken a more level headed approach to this.  Anarkex, why are you so staunchly apposed to a few handful of video games being unplayable shit that are heralded by their creators as the only worthwhile video games to have ever been created?  Can't you cut these people a tiny iota of slack?  Sure, they may be the most despicable dregs of the indie game community, but that doesn't mean you have to sink to their level by disagreeing with them!

Oh my Heavens, Anarkex!  Truly, it's a sad day when you must take such an unwavering, naziotistical, Hitlertesticle approach to our beloved electronic vidcons.
Logged
Anarkex
Level 0
***


Still dope.


View Profile Email
« Reply #27 on: August 26, 2010, 08:56:32 PM »

It's ABSURD, Paul. That's why I'm laughing and joking about it. I bothered to pick apart stuff like that dumb zen platitude about goals because that's seriously all they have to support their claims. Just big flashy words masquerading as a deep knowledge of the unexplainable. I know this because when I first started looking at the indie games community I used to THINK dumb shit like this. I'm making a joke about it because I've been there, and this way of thinking doesn't have anything supporting it at all.

But no, it wasn't about whether he meant DISCOVER or ESTABLISH or ACCOMPLISH or whatever. The WHOLE THING was absurd, down to the very concept. I don't LOSE a goal when I achieve it! Goals are only IDEAS, they're "things we plan to do". So holy shit, when I do something, I lose the plan to do it. THAT'S DEEP.
AND WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH GAMES AND ART, EVEN?

Quote
i think in general we should have more respect for fellow indie game developers, regardless of their opinions, and quit acting like fundamentalists when we see things we don't agree with

Paul, what these particular indie game developers are saying runs against basically everything I believe and value in video games. I go through great pains to support my opinions and to eradicate contradictions in them, even if it means I have to accept that my first impression was wrong. So I DON'T have to respect opinions that are cobbled together out of nothing and outright insult all the conclusions I've made. I mean, seriously.

Quote
'nerds aren't creative, programming destroys creativity, the reason games are so bad is because they're made by nerds'

Shit like this is flat-out idiotic and insulting. Video games are the only field in which knowing MORE and caring MORE about them brands you a NERD who is dooming the "medium" to forever be nothing but MALE POWER FANTASIES (lol). We should all be retard casuals so games never get more interesting than Game Maker platformers.

Quote
so what i'm basically saying is, making fun of people isn't conductive of convincing them that they're wrong.

I'm not trying to convince them they're wrong. I'm trying to show OTHER PEOPLE that they are wrong. Really it's amazing that I have to do this, because as I've said, they're only making baseless claims and insulting everyone with their glorious battle-cries that violate semantics and reality in one fell swoop.

Also, what Ashford said.
Logged

I had an idea for a game once.
Gnarf
Level 10
*****



View Profile WWW
« Reply #28 on: August 26, 2010, 10:48:32 PM »

Usually, making fun of people is fun. ToT or whoever may remain convinced that games are not games are not art are notgames are art. Still fun.

Quote
Perhaps these are species that are naturally aggressive as well as smart enough to realize that playful competition benefits their survival. To achieve that purpose, competition obviously needs to be fair. So they make up rules. And games are born.

One hundred percent absurd pseudoscientific bullshit. "playful competition benefits their survival", though we're reluctant to explain how or why. NOT engaging in playful competition doesn't seem to put less aggressive and less intelligent creatures at a disadvantage.

What? Random moment in random Attenborough thing and it's like blablah playful competition, seems just funny and funky, but this actually prepares them for blablah taking down prey.

The "smart enough" thing is silly nonsense.
Logged

This is IT -- the missing link in the chain of my existence. Rondo's SPINNING BUDDHA is what I need to make me complete.
Dustin Smith
Level 10
*****


Eskimo James Dean


View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #29 on: August 26, 2010, 11:48:04 PM »

I don't care for ToT's games or their M.O., but they totally should keep making games. The last thing we need in this medium is ignorant dogmatism and (figuratively speaking) incest. 
Logged

Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 17
Print
Jump to:  

Theme orange-lt created by panic