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[threesided]

I unfortunately came into this thread a little late and don't have the time to read through all these thorough posts, so if I come to copy a person's idea well.. I guess that goes to show that something like that should be done!

First, I am a fan of HP and MP systems. I think some games however take it too far, such as Final Fantasy series. The amount of HP you gain as you level seems to increase far too fast, and as a result, you end up with that problem of there being no difference between 525 and 510. That's definitely a problem. In my opinion though, that's a very hard thing to fine-tune. Having all enemies and players with the right  HP throughout the entire game, forcing players to think about their attacks, plan a good time for healing etc. and really just THINK about whether that last 10 hp is going to hold out until the end of the battle is such an ambitious and daunting thing to balance. To me I think the flaw in numerical battle systems isn't in the actual concept, but moreso in the inability to get it absolutely right. Perhaps game designers who work on multiple titles (Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest), instead of reinventing every time, try fine-tuning what sucked in the last one. If it was too grindy, make the levelling more streamlined. If there was no point in status ailments, make it so they are important or get rid of them. I think  it moreso comes down to that ADD approach to RPG making.



One more thing I really think would benefit here would be some examples of what kinds of inventive additions to and RPG system has worked.

There are a few I can think of, and I'll go through them by title. These are mainly games I played that stuck with me as something that stood out in the genre, and I've played a lot of RPG's

Super Mario RPG: Secret of the Seven Stars: This to me took a simple jRPG style battle system and just kicked the shit out of it in the best way. The crowning achievement of that game (in the battle system) has to be the timing system. One thing jRPG's lack in battles is interactivity. There's no oppurtunity to affect your attacks or your enemy's attacks on you. You're left helpless to see whether you've hit or not. SMRPG is one of the few games where I loved to battle, it was just cool to see that you pressing buttons during an attack could actually affect things, or block an attack to make it do less damage. There was something inherently natural to me about pressing buttons in reaction to attacks. I really wish more RPG's used this system. It would take the boring grindy shit out of it (in my humble opinion). There's also just a certain charm to this game that remains with me.

Final Fantasy 6: I'd just like to quickly note the sheer number of characters you could be. That was an awesome way to keep the story interesting. Also, the intertwining game stories, where your party gets split up and you play overlapping "missions". I've yet to really find a game that does this as well, if at all.

Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross: This has been mentioned I think, but it has a lot of appeal to it. Multiple endings, Cross had a HUGE list of playables that made you go through at least 3 or so times to get them all I think. Both took a basic battle system and turned it on its head too. Combo attacks in Trigger was great,and such a unique idea. Suikoden did it too, but I think CT did it better.

Earthbound:There's a lot to say about this game too, but one thing that speaks to someone else's point about battles, is that the game didn't force you to fight certain enemies once you were strong enough, you automatically won.

Secret of Evermore/Secret of Mana/Kingdom Hearts: These three would fall more squarely into Action/RPG, although it really highlights how a leveling,hp and magic system can be implemented in a unique and engaging way. Although these may not be considered traditional jRPG's, they still hold true to a lot of the basic outlined qualities they hold as seen in Guert's first post.



So those are just some games that I think illustrate how a cliched battle system can be taken to new heights.



Story-wise, I'm going to say that it's hard to break out of the cliches simply because they do make the most sense in terms of needing to span an entire world/fight an ultimate evil etc. I think the cliches provide a solid foundation to the story. Although, the downfall comes in when those foundations aren't built upon.


AAAANNNNNDDDD my last point to make, about the so-called "Customization of Avatars" thing. This is probably one of my biggest gripes to the game, and that is that there isn't really ever customization. You often have only ONE choice of weapon or armor to upgrade to, or else you're stuck with a weaker weapon. It makes it seem as though you're customizing, but really, this is probably the most horribly linear aspect of the RPG genre. There should be a better way of customizing so that you once again, have to THINK about what you choose to buy. There obviously has to be some linear upgrading of that nature, but I think the equipment systems in jRPG's need a lot of work.

FFXII kind of did something cool by making each person able to use all weapons, but they needed to work towards getting licenses for them first. This could be easily abused, which is where the downfall comes, but I think it's an interesting start towards better cusomizability in equipment systems.



Fug this is long. sry guys and gals. :S

[Inane]

You often have only ONE choice of weapon or armor to upgrade to, or else you're stuck with a weaker weapon. It makes it seem as though you're customizing, but really, this is probably the most horribly linear aspect of the RPG genre. There should be a better way of customizing so that you once again, have to THINK about what you choose to buy.

This is something that annoys me to no end, when the equipment progression is completely linear.
Particularly annoying in FFT (Which isn't really a JRPG, I know) where most equipment had unique abilities, but it usually wasn't worth losing 50 HP or 25 damage per hit over.

[William Broom]

You often have only ONE choice of weapon or armor to upgrade to, or else you're stuck with a weaker weapon. It makes it seem as though you're customizing, but really, this is probably the most horribly linear aspect of the RPG genre. There should be a better way of customizing so that you once again, have to THINK about what you choose to buy.

This is something that annoys me to no end, when the equipment progression is completely linear.
Particularly annoying in FFT (Which isn't really a JRPG, I know) where most equipment had unique abilities, but it usually wasn't worth losing 50 HP or 25 damage per hit over.

I found this in FFXII as well. THe players' stats already increase constantly as they level up, so why do you need ridiculously powerful weapons as well? It would be more tactical, not to mention more realistic, if the weapons conveyed special abilities or bonuses rather than just growing ever more powerful. Using FFXII as an example, they could take out all those 'Green Magicks' that inflict poison/sap/petrify/disable/tuberculosis on the enemies, and give you weapons that do that instead.

[Xion]

Here's something interesting on leveling: http://jice.nospam.googlepages.com/levelingsystem
Although it's pertaining to a (cool looking) RL being developed, I think the system could apply to normal RPGs.

As for weapons, I think it would be more balanced and "customizable"y if all the equipment had maybe a points system to be distributed throughout all the stats, sort of like how in some games you can put points towards certain skills and stuff by taking them away from others. Similarly, let's say all weapons would have like 30 points to distribute among 5 stats. Evenly distributed the stats would all be 6. This would be the baseline for stats, being +0. but say one sword took a point away from attack and put it towards defense, or vice versa. The sword takes a point away from speed and adds it, to attack also, so the weapon now has an attack of +2, def of -1 and speed of -1. The farther you get into the game, the more disparate the weapons' points are distributed, so at beginning areas/low levels, you could have weapons be fairly neutral, but then as you advance, weapons' potential +attack will rise, but if you choose a weapon with a really high attack it will invariably be crippled in one, if not all, other aspects.

All this talk of stats reminds me of another thing:

JRPGs have too many. Luck, integrity, charisma, charm, wtf? I never found out what that stuff does. The only stats I ever pay any attention to are attack, defense, speed, and whatever-it's-called-that-determines-spell-strength. The other stuff just gets in the way on the inventory screen and takes up precious time when I level, what with all the bubbles that tell me what stat's've gone up and such. (in the games that do that, of course.)

I think Tales of Phantasia deserves a mention for its battle system, as well. I've never played any others in the tales of series, though, were they similar? Sidescrolling realtime combat as opposed to the turnbased drivel, ftw. Far from perfect, but it was fresh.

[William Broom]

I would have thought stats like integrity and charisma are more prevalent in WRPGs. Luck, I understand - it modifies the random elements in your favour. I like the idea of luck, because I've always wanted to make a character who has mediocre stats in everything but luck, and gets away with it. He's a bit like Fortune from MGS2, or Captain Kennit from Sara Douglass' The Liveship Traders. However, it rarely works out like this, and instead Luck is used as a crutch to make every character generally stronger.
My imaginary Luck character always finds the key he needs in the first or second treasure chest he opens. He defeats enemies because they trip over, or they ate a bad batch of mushrooms the night before. Merchants accidentally give him too much change.  He slays the dragon because he caught it while it was asleep. Other characters slog through whole dungeons to acquire an item which just turns up on Lucky's doorstep... you get the picture.

Unfortunately this character will probably never come to be, since every modern WRPG resembles Grand Theft Auto more than it does D&D. Age of Decadence excluded, of course 

Sorry, I ended up kind of talking about WRPGs in the JRPG thread.

[Paul Eres]

But what do we know about "you" as a character in those cases?  For narrative purposes the character of "you" is completely hollow, with no characterization at all.  Essentially who "you" are as a character makes absolutely no difference in these games.  No RPG could get away with having player characterization be *this* hollow.  It's a totally different situation.

That was exactly my point and I think it's desirable. Plenty of RPGs "get away" with it. Persona 3, the Suikoden Games, even Chrono Trigger have very hollow main characters. Those characters are still important to the story, but they have no personality, and I think it works better that way because the player can put his own personality onto a character if that character has very little personality of their own. There's a reason why most playable main characters in RPGs are silent types -- if they talked too much the player would think "I'd never say anything like that!" or "Why did I say such a stupid thing?", whereas if they hardly ever say anything, it doesn't break the illusion that you are the character.

[Zest]

Even in the Mario RPG series, every single character except Mario has dialogue. I suppose this is partly due to the fact that Mario has rarely spoken at all in any of his games, so it seems more natural. While it's not impossible to create a likeable speaking protagonist (the kid from Shadow Hearts: From the New World comes to mind), it's much easier for the developer to just shut him up and let the player inhabit his hollow shell.

Going back to battle systems, I feel Mario and Luigi: Superstar Saga has one of the best I've seen in any RPG, ever. This is one of the few JRPGs that I WANT to get into fights. The combos and reaction commands make the battles consistently entertaining- it doesn't hurt that the presentation is charming as well. I'd also recommend Skies of Arcadia's more complex traditional system, as well as one I'm not sure was mentioned earlier:

Pokemon.

Yes, Pokemon. Think about it. That is a traditional JRPG disguised as a Beanie Baby collect-em-up. Your Pokemon have statistics, just like in a JRPG (Health, Defense, Attack, etc.), they level up and gain experience upon winning a battle, and they can use items to help them in battle. Without the amazingly creative designs (my last Pokemon game was Gold, so I can't comment on the ones later added), it would just be another Dragon Warrior knock-off. It's amazing just how much personality can add to a game. Example: Earthbound.

[Paul Eres]

Actually I dislike Pokemon ever since I found out it was pretty much a rip-off of an earlier Megami Tensei game involving a kid collecting devils :D

[Gnarf]

Collecting really weird and cute animals is one million times as awesome as collecting devils though.

[joshg]

Pokemon is an awesome game, despite how overboard the phenomenon went afterwards.  (I blame the CCG.)

[Melly]

That, and the latest game has some really fucked-up-looking pokes. I think they're running out of ideas.

I never could get much into Pokemon games because of the lack of a plot, and if there is a plot it sucks.

[dustin]

That, and the latest game has some really fucked-up-looking pokes. I think they're running out of ideas.

WHAT?! I love diamond pearl!  Much more then ruby/saphire.

I think Tales of Phantasia deserves a mention for its battle system, as well. I've never played any others in the tales of series, though, were they similar? Sidescrolling realtime combat as opposed to the turnbased drivel, ftw. Far from perfect, but it was fresh.

yeah all the tales games have that battle system.  I particularly liked tales of symphonia, it was lots of fun to go through with multiple people each person controlling one of the charecters.

I feel Mario and Luigi: Superstar Saga has one of the best I've seen in any RPG, ever.

yeah I love that game to.  Also the leveling system was great to.  Like that Paper mario and the thousand year door.  I love how the stats are simple, just 3 hp, fp (magic points), and badge points.  Also I love how a lot of the leveling elements are gotten through exploring, you collect badges by exploring and the other charecters level up simply by gathering certain items that are hidden.  I feel like this turned the focus onto exploring instead of fighting for levels.

[Melly]

That, and the latest game has some really fucked-up-looking pokes. I think they're running out of ideas.

WHAT?! I love diamond pearl!  Much more then ruby/saphire.

It's not a matter of the game being good or bad (I haven't played much of it) but 80% of the new critters are just plain ugly. Some of the new legendaries look like Digimon/YuGiOh rejects.

[Guert]

Great comments guys!

Xion: that spark system to indicate damage is quite interesting. I personaly don't like popping numbers and this alternative seems simple and effective

In general, what transpires so far is that you guys seem either want to remove battles (or at least make them a lot less important) or have more control over them (like Tales of Phantasia or Mario RPG). Of course, it's hard to tell what is better since it depends on the kind of player you are in my opinion (see the Bartle test). I feel that, if you are the kind of player who enjoys exploring, battles are irritating because they distract you in your exploration. If you are more of a killer, battles are the best part because that's where you get to beat the game viceraly. Personaly, I like both, depending of how I'm feeling. One game I truly enjoyed that has something "in the middle" in terms of battle system and general feel was Grandia 2 (dc version). I truly enjoyed it because I didn't have to grind and I could skip simple battles if I wanted to. It offered enough strategy so I didn't feel like the randomizer went for or against me. Also, I enjoyed the storyline which was original to me (even tho it was predicatble most of time ) 

I'm happy Disgaea was brought up regarding grinding. I'm a big fan of the first game because of this too: you didn't have to level up (wll almost no grinding) in order to finish the game. The players who want to really play the game for the story can play through it without worrying much while those who enjoy stats battles have long hours of gameplay in their hand. 

As cgmonkey mentionned, it's also important to look at the japanese market as well. I mean, we all know that the western and european markets are different, hence why there's an actual JRPG sub-genre. My experience tells me that japanese player all seem to be "obsessive" when playing games. They grind alot, whatever the game is. I might be completly wrong tho, but it always felt to me like the japanese player will study the rules and make sure he applies them to perfection. The vertical shooter genre is a good example of this. But of course, I may be wrong as I am not a japanese player and never did some actual play tests with them.

About the unoriginal storyline... No, using cliches do not make something bad automaticaly. Everything can be done with great originality even tho we've seen it a million times before. My question was rather toward how, in jrpgs, can we have that spark of originality when so many titles exist. For instance, if a jrpg featured humoristic content instead of being serious (like save the princess but turns out the princess is an actual dragon) or staged in a new world (you live on a cupcake and your goal is to make it unatractive to the eater's eye while eliminating bacteries, hence saving the world from a great powerful being who wants to consume your world while fighting evil monsters that spawn from nowhere),would it still be a jrpg?  Is there some settings that could be interesting to use in Jrpgs, like westerns, prehistoric era or something like that?

Yes, Pokemon is a great twist on how you can dress up an rpg. Let's not go too far with the pokemon subject since these games are created as products, we might find ourselves very far form the original topic

Great discussion guys! It's quite fun to see all your different point of views on the topic! I'm not an rpg expert so I don't have much to say about that but it's great reading your posts!

[William Broom]

I would love to see some original settings for JRPGs. It seems like every single one is based on this haphazard mashup of sci-fi, fantasy and steampunk, what you might refer to as 'airship fantasy'. However there are a few settings that stand out: Kingdom Hearts, Disney worlds of course; Wild Arms, post-apocalyptic western; Persona, Japanese high school with demons; Digital Devil Saga, Matrix-style cyberspace with demons; various other Shin Megami Tensei games like Raidou Kuzunoha which is set in the 1920s (?) with demons; The World Ends With You, set in Tokyo's trendiest shopping district. With demons.

The lesson here is that any location can become a JRPG setting if you pepper it with demons. Since most of the time these demons can't be seen by most people, you can add them to any setting without disrupting it at all. Bring on the Western with demons, space opera with demons, political thriller with demons, 60s gangsters with demons etc.

But seriously, I can see why so many of these games have demons. It's because of all the random battles. If all your enemies were gunslingers and sheriff's boys, it would soon become unbelievable because you slaughter, what, 5000 enemies in your average JRPG? There just aren't that many cowboys in the Old West. Demons can respawn infinitely without hindering the plot.