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[AshfordPride]

You guys should not care whether he thinks you said something stupid. Surely you can agree that that's the strongest, manliest, humanest, bestest course of action, right? DON'T GIVE A FUCK (all caps).

If I cared I never would bother posting thew stuff that would make me lose face with icycalm.  I would just link to the thing icycalm says instead of saying what I have to say, even if it would make me look like an idiot to icycalm.  I guess I can hope that the stuff I'm saying is right, and syncs up with someone who has repeatedly proven to be more knowledgeable and informed than myself, but it doesn't effect what I have to say. 

[Gimym JIMBERT]

@paul

"Imagine sitting in front of a television set, watching all sorts of pictures projected on the screen of the picture tube. Some of these pictures are of rain, murder, gun shots, romance, and so on. When the show is over, the screen neither becomes wet from the rain, nor has blood from the murder, nor bullet holes from the gun shots, nor emotions from the romance. The screen itself is clean and unchanging; for the projections are unreal, and the screen is real."

[ஒழுக்கின்மை]

the matrix is stupid

[Gimym JIMBERT]

It's not from the matrix, It was from an indian philosophy site.

Non philosopher Krisnamurti is very close to concept such as Maya and leela. Not that it's a surprise considering his name.

BTW I thought the matrix was stupid with superficial take on such thought until I realize they use anti editing to make the movie. Montage is misleading in that movie because that's the point of the movie. But the movie is still bad and worthless imo :p

[Gimym JIMBERT]

The mind is the creation that arises out of the True Self. We are this screen. All the manifestation we see on this screen is the projection of our Vaasnaas (past habits or undigested desires) that fall across our mind. This projection of Vaasnaas causes us to identify ourselves as the projected watcher of the movie. The problem starts the moment we run after the projections thinking they are real. With this delusion (Dubidhaa or duality) comes the perception that the seer is different than the seeing and seen. But in reality, the "seer", "seeing" and "seen" are one and the same!In simple terms, the duality is the disease of our conditioned mind (i.e., doubts, desires, fear, worry, etc.), which veils our True Self (Joti-Svaroopa). As a result, one thinks himself "other" than the Spirit Soul, the Divine, and so on. This is the notion of two-ness. Hence, as the Gurbani puts it, the duality is nothing but the love (Bhaav) of two-ness (Doojaa). This is Maya: dualistic principle of delusion, pluralistic phenomena, or the law of opposites.

http://www.gurbani.org/articles/webart49.htm

Krisnamurti basically made a less spiritual interpretation of this.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை]

yes, but it was from the matrix thread: i was agreeing with you in your last post where you quoted that quote.

and it's similar to maya, yeah. however, the difference is that u.g. is not mystical, and does not believe in the supernatural or in gods or anything religious. so it's sort of an updated modernization of it i guess.

another key difference is that the hindu idea is that eventually you'll be able to see through maya at the "real" reality. u.g. claims that that is impossible: you will NEVER see through maya, ever. it's impossible, and even if you could there would be nothing there to see anyway.

so i think maya is more closely similar to plato's cave than to u.g.'s belief that thought was originally a useful, even essential tool of survival that got out of control and now holds many people captive and trapped in systems of thought which sometimes go against thought's original purpose as a tool of survival, and that philosophy is at best a great tool of sharpening thought but isn't actually "about" anything at all, much like lifting weights doesn't actually do any useful work, it just exercises the muscles.

[neon]

this thread is 117 pages long. 

[C.A. Silbereisen]

That Krishnamurti guy seems like a kewl dewd. 

[ஒழுக்கின்மை]

i just asked super joe about the connection between philosophy and lifting weights, and he agreed with me

"as deep thought invigorates the soul and expands the mind, lifting weights makes you really cool and expands your delts and lats bro" -super joe

[Superb Joe]

I licked Foucalt's frenulum. He thanked me for it and was very cordial.

[Derek]

Not a distraction at all, I'm trying to steer you back into discussing the topic at hand, namely icy's piercing attack against Rohrer:

Your poison is seeping, slowly but surely and inevitably, throughout the entire industry, DEVALUING the ENTIRE HISTORY OF THE ARTFORM, then LOWERING THE QUALITY OF PRESENT AND FUTURE WORKS FOR ALL TIME, then DESTROYING THE CRITICAL ABILITY of those who wish to provide criticism (by messing their criteria to such an extent that criticism simply becomes impossible, and any deficiency whatsoever can be defended by the retarded excuse "but it's art"). And if all that were not enough, you are LOWERING THE LEVEL OF INTELLIGENCE OF THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE, by spreading and increasing the level of pretentiousness and unconscious hypocrisy, to the point where ENTIRE GROUPS OF PEOPLE BECOME FOR EVER UNRECEPTIVE TO CRITICAL EVALUATION, REASONED ARGUMENT AND PHILOSOPHY, losing entire chunks of their lives among cheap simulacra, not even getting any enjoyment out of them but desperately trying to uncover some "meaning" in them, INSTEAD OF LOOKING FOR IT IN LIFE, INSIDE THEMSELVES, effectively MENTALLY STUNTING ENTIRE GENERATIONS OF HUMAN BEINGS... and you have the nerve to contact me in order to tell me that your diabolical schemes will not "derail videogames" -- WHEN YOUR WRETCHED, VENAL SHENANIGANS ARE HELPING TO DERAIL THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE!

Perhaps, if you humour me, you will begin to understand how the hell I'm going to arrive at this point. Also, why I take the above extremely seriously. That's right, those who are laughing after reading the above, it cannot be more serious -- icycalm is dead on, in the above passage. This is one of the most important things he has written on his forum.

I do want to say something about this: as simple a game as Passage is, and as quietly as Jason first released it, it certainly has provoked plenty of reactions from both sides. Both the people who love it and the detractors. The threads about art games are always the longest, the most passionate, and the most philosophical. No matter how boring and trite you claim they are, they have obviously affected you... and icycalm, too. The Genealogy of Art Games will probably have more parts and words dedicated to it than any other section of insomnia.ac.

I think most reasonable people would agree that the appropriate reaction to something truly boring and shit is to ignore it, but that seems impossible for anyone to do, but most of all detractors like yourself and icycalm. That's probably one reason why abstract art keeps getting made - it's because of the critics and not in spite of them.

And if anything, more people will play and appreciate bullet-hell shmups because of the discussion generated by Passage. A simple game caused so much controversy that instead of dumbing down humanity, it got everyone up in arms and talking. It's worth considering, if it hasn't been considered already.

Ask yourself if you'd even be here sharing your ideas if Passage was never created. Surely there is some value in that?

[C.A. Silbereisen]

I licked Foucalt's frenulum. He thanked me for it and was very cordial.

Can it be?

[Superb Joe]

Preface: I own a lab coat.

I have for some time (approximately 2, possibly 3 minutes) now tried to ascertain who or what icycalm is, what his agenda may be, and how he feels about certain subjects. I have gazed through the lens of the self, the lens of the absurd, at his posts, and I am unable to read them. Letters flit past my eyes like a fantastical slit-scan photography special effect. Science may never know what this man is saying, nor why.

[ink.inc]

I licked Foucalt's frenulum. He thanked me for it and was very cordial.

Can it be?

Dear god, I hope so.

[Okenido]

I reject the theory.

[C.A. Silbereisen]

I think most reasonable people would agree that the appropriate reaction to something truly boring and shit is to ignore it, but that seems impossible for anyone to do, but most of all detractors like yourself and icycalm. That's probably one reason why abstract art keeps getting made - it's because of the critics and not in spite of them.

Just a couple words on this: It can become hard to ignore something you find trite and boring once it reaches a certain level of popularity.

For instance, I've been a vocal opponent (on this forum) of games that are the result of what Tony Z (if we're already talking about him) has called "Xboxification", i.e. dumbing down formerly "hardcore" games or genres for mass appeal, making them more generic and destroying everything that was once worthwhile about them in the process.

Now if this was some kind of minor niche phenomenon, I could happily ignore it and move on with my life. But due the fact that I, being part of the gaming subculture, constantly get games like Oblivion, Fallout 3, Bioshock and Uncharted rubbed into my face "masterpieces", you'll have to forgive me for getting a little irate.

[moi]

I licked Foucalt's frenulum. He thanked me for it and was very cordial.

Can it be?

Dear god, I hope so.

Not sure yet, holding up my enthusiasm.

[Blademasterbobo]

@CAS

haha yeah, sometimes everybody seems to like games that i dislike, too!!2 what's up with that??/ what douchebags!!1

[BoxedLunch]

I licked Foucalt's frenulum. He thanked me for it and was very cordial.

Can it be?

Dear god, I hope so.

Not sure yet, holding up my enthusiasm.

finally i can see what a tigsource with super joe was like.

[Gimym JIMBERT]

yes, but it was from the matrix thread: i was agreeing with you in your last post where you quoted that quote.

and it's similar to maya, yeah. however, the difference is that u.g. is not mystical, and does not believe in the supernatural or in gods or anything religious. so it's sort of an updated modernization of it i guess.

another key difference is that the hindu idea is that eventually you'll be able to see through maya at the "real" reality. u.g. claims that that is impossible: you will NEVER see through maya, ever. it's impossible, and even if you could there would be nothing there to see anyway.

so i think maya is more closely similar to plato's cave than to u.g.'s belief that thought was originally a useful, even essential tool of survival that got out of control and now holds many people captive and trapped in systems of thought which sometimes go against thought's original purpose as a tool of survival, and that philosophy is at best a great tool of sharpening thought but isn't actually "about" anything at all, much like lifting weights doesn't actually do any useful work, it just exercises the muscles.

THis is not the thread to discuss this, but saying maya is akin to plato's cave is ignorant of the deep meaning of maya and ignoring the concept of leelaa. You can't see through maya, you can only recognize it as Krishnamurti ultimately does, and spiritual concept is more metaphoric than occidental acceptance of the term.

There is really only one game, the game in which each of us is a player acting out his role. The game is Leela, the universal play of cosmic energy. Leela is divine play. It is present in the nature of the Supreme Self. It is this playful nature which creates the world of names and forms - the phenomenal world. Leela is life itself, energy expressed as the myriad forms and feelings presented continuously to the self.
The essence of the player is his ability to become, to adopt a role. That which is the essence of the player can enter into any role. But once the player enters into the game, once he assumes the identity of the persona he adopts, he loses sight of his true nature, and gets caught by maya (illusion). He forgets the essence of what it is to play the game. His moves are decided by the karma die.


The purpose of this small game is to help the player gain this ability to withdraw from his identifications and see how he might become a better player.

See how the concept of becoming a better player is akin to sharpening oneself.

But since you are mostly expose principally to western concept you can only understand those concept within that framework. I can only encourage you to decipher a bit more Hindu philosophy,it's very relevant to game.