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[Paul Eres]

He dismisses the orb hunting challenges as arbitrary placement of hidden areas. There seemed to be some reasonable clues to the places I stumbled on. But I'm not inclined to go hunt out them all.

First impressions: Like the cohesiveness of the world (climbing out of the volcano!), hate the controls. Got stuck on a music puzzle. Probably will complete it anyway...

yeah -- if you're used to finding hidden areas in games most of the hidden areas aren't too hard. and since areas and orbs are organized by color, you can generally figure out which area of the game has the missing orbs. it's still a bit of a challenge to find them all though. but it may not be what's considered 'good' challenge, as some people find hunting every last orb boring (which is a reasonable reaction). i like the non-linearity of it though.

i also think it may be the first game to make 'exploration' itself into a game mechanic (later other variations of it were made, like knytt and small worlds, but i think seiklus did it the best). there was some precedence for it though: super metroid, for instance, rewarded you with a better ending if you got 100% of all items collected in the game, and symphony of the night listed the % exploration of the world (and i think gives you an achievement in the xbox version for exploring it all). but 'exploring every nook and cranny, finding all the secret areas' wasn't really made the central premise of a game until seiklus, as far as i know, and started the whole 'zen platformer' trend among indie games (which culminated with glum buster, which is probably the pinnacle of that form so far).

[substance]

I honestly never felt the name was meant to imply that Quake was not art. Do people who watch and critique movies react as violently to the phrase "art film"? What about "modern art"?

Think about it though, wouldn't the existence and acceptance of a category "art game" imply that those outside the category are not "art"? You either eliminate the category or you populate it with all the games you consider "art". Otherwise it's a deceptive name.

Imagine if I sold tyres and had a box labelled "'new' tyres" filled to the brim with second hand tyres. That's kind of what it feels like.

[moi]

What's funny about Rohrer games is that their main focus wasn't message in the first place. Message was just a tools to explore how to express things solely with mechanics.

...then...

content is not container moi
It was about HOW rather than WHAT

1-first you're making a mistake, message content should never be considered separately from message container. The container is part of the message.

2-if this game is just an essay about the theories of semantic then it's uninteresting and futile. People have been using limited means to transmit messages since cave painting. It's really uninteresting to watch rorher making an essay about using 8 bit sprites to transmit a message. People have been transmitting messages with 8 bit sprites for more than 30 years. What's the point?
And don't tell me that the message in "the passage" is more "meaningful" than the message in ,say, smurf on the colecovision.

[C.A. Sinner]

What does this even mean, lol.

You know what it means, lol? It means you're a pathetic nerd who needs to elevate himself above others via his nerdy hobbies because he's a complete failure IRL, lol. No you're not a "great man" because of your score in Ketsui, stop deluding yourself and get a job, lol.

All you've done in this thread so far is tell people they're wrong and refuse to back up any of your moronic claims, because as soon you'd have to move out of your comfort zone where you can use Lord Icygard and Nietzsche as your mouthpieces and were forced to articulate an original thought, you'd turn into a mumbling retard just like your buddy guitar_loser, lol.

[substance]

What was that? I couldn't hear you over all the crying.

All you've done in this thread so far is tell people they're wrong and refuse to back up any of your moronic claims

Quite ironic because I've expanded on most of my points, even if it was succinct. Perhaps you lack the capacity to counter what I've said effectively? It clearly shows from that warioware analysis of yours, LOL.

[Breadcultist]

i also think it may be the first game to make 'exploration' itself into a game mechanic (later other variations of it were made, like knytt and small worlds, but i think seiklus did it the best). there was some precedence for it though: super metroid, for instance

Even before Super Metroid, exploration and finding secrets was a part of plaformers. It just always took a back seat to the hardcore platforming mechanics. Super Mario Bros. had warp zones, SMB3 had lots more secret areas with powerup boxes, etc.

Seems to me that Seiklus put exploration as its main focus because that's all it had available. The physics is too sloppy for hardcore jumpin' 'round.

ETA: not the case with Knytt games. The movement of those flea-monkeys is much more pleasant to simply roam around with. And there were a few tricky platforming sections, multi-wall-jumping stuff. But checkpoints, checkpoints, everywhere! The reduction of platforming difficulty was deliberate. The choice was made... to focus on exploration...

[Absurdist]

Hello internet philosophers. This thread is terrifying.

You don't need a "message" to be art. The "pure awesome design" that bento_smile mentioned is expression of human creative skill.

The video game is a combination of code and text, graphic, and sound assets. A smart algorithm or game mechanic isn't art in itself. A sprite is not art, it's a part of a larger whole. The writing in an RPG isn't art on its own. Sound effects and soundtracks are not art either, if done properly: the best games are cohesive combinations of good code and good assets that do not stand apart from each other but were created from the very beginning to be parts of a larger creation.

To me, the combination of such pieces in a cohesive way (game design) is an art.

Therefore Quake and Passage are equally art. Just because Passage happens to have a message while Quake is all about killing stuff because it's fun doesn't make it more art.

Calling some games "art games" emphasizes that those games have some sort of message behind them. It's a misnomer.

If you throw together some code and assets without a coherent theme then you have created bad art, or not art at all.
If you design a combination of those pieces with a specific vision of a whole then you have created good art. It doesn't matter whether the art is pixelated and the music is 8-bit, as long as everything fits together nicely.

Making a game with a message does not somehow take away from the art of other games.

Just the opinion of someone who likes to play and make games. I don't think all the philosophizing is getting you anywhere.

Artfags: All video games are art, but some games (message games) are more equal than others.

Icyfags: All video games are art, but some games (hardcore games) are more equal than others.

They're saying the same thing!!!

[Dragonmaw]

substance is boring let's all laud the return of super joe

edit: sorry SUPERB joe

[FARTRON]

Do people who watch and critique movies react as violently to the phrase "art film"? What about "modern art"?

Yes.

[Breadcultist]

Artfags: All video games are art, but some games (message games) are more equal than others.

Icyfags: All video games are art, but some games (hardcore games) are more equal than others.

I don't think anyone's beating the 'message games' drum any more.

If you don't think Quake has a message... enjoy.

[shig]

to explore how to express things solely with mechanics.

The only "messages" that can be expressed solely with mechanics are the same ones you can get from any other sport or boardgame. Everything else comes from the aesthethics alone.

Example: try replacing Passage's sprites so that instead of playing as people who get older and die, you play as TVs that gradually transform into dinosaurs and then evaporate - The "memento mori" will be completely lost. This shouldn't happen if the "message" had been "expressed solely through mechanics".

[st33d]

Bloody hell. How did I miss this thread?

[substance]

Artfags: All video games are art, but some games (message games) are more equal than others.

Icyfags: All video games are art, but some games (hardcore games) are more equal than others.

They're saying the same thing!!!

Except they're not saying the same thing, like icycalm already pointed out, what you call "hardcore games" also have these "messages" you speak of:

But let's forget about philosophy, which no one who plays videogames other than me seems to be able to grasp anyway, and let's bring the level of the discussion all the way duuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhooooowntown, so that everyone can understand it.

You want a message, dude? I'll give you a fuckin' message. Gears of War has a message for you. What message is that? That killing aliens is your only option if they are out to kill you first.

What -- you don't think that's a worthwhile message? What are you, a communist? Alien sympathizer? You turncoat traitor yellow bastard scum!

Besides, the real message is the game, the medium is the hardware it runs on. You can use games to post up your IM messages for all I care, it doesn't turn them into "art", lol.

EDIT: The post is almost redundant since Breadcultist replied adequately but hey, I'll leave it up for the second last sentence.

[substance]

By the way Derek, I hope you don't take what I said about discussing random level generation the wrong way. It's not that I don't want to talk about it with you, I do. It's just that this thread isn't the best place for it. Perhaps when/if I have something more concrete, I'll present it in another thread on this forum.

[C.A. Sinner]

Quite ironic

Yes, quite.

It clearly shows from that warioware analysis of yours, LOL.

See the problem, faggot? For all your "philosophy", you appear to lack even the most basic capacities of human interaction, LOL. Go back to your "actual wars".

Oh and this is typical nerdfag behavior as well: To think people insult you because they "can't handle" your opinions, lol. I have no desire to "counter" anything you've said. Because you're obviously much more intelligent than me, I thought maybe you'd have figured that out by now.