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[Melly]

You can still make some discussion on game-design on account of experiencing that design in the games you've played. But there's no way you can discuss game programming if you've never experienced any aspect of it.

Basically, icycalm believes he is always right. However, if he was right about game design being "boring" and playing them superior, then games wouldn't be made, and he wouldn't have anything to enjoy.

Haha, that's an interesting contradiction there. I have spoken with developers that have more fun making games than they do playing most others. Making a game can be a very rewarding experience. You're building something new with your own hands, and you're spreading enjoyment to many others.

But for Icycalm his personal, subjective opinions on what is enjoyable or not are fundamental truths of the universe, regardless of how contradicting or illogical they may be when applied to everyone.

[C.A. Silbereisen]

Maybe I'm unfairly harsh on you, Breadcultist. The sort of misconceptions you have are pretty common among gamers who don't know how to dev.

Let me explain this in words you hopefully understand:
Brilliant programmers like Carmack and Romero (although the latter was more of a level design dude at id) were needed in the game industry back when hardware was slow and crude and you had optimize the shit out of your engine to even get your game running at decent speeds. For instance, watch the first part of the great Romero interview linked to in the insomnia.ac thread that spawned this whole mess and hear him explain how he had to learn assembly specifically so he could make the games he wanted.

This isn't needed anymore today. The hardware has become so powerful, squeezing every last drop of performance out of your game the way the id guys did back then is simply not practical anymore and costs precious time (and therefore money). No one in the mainstream game industry uses assembly anymore (as far as I know) and the number of high-budget games made with pre-existing engines (called middleware) is ever rising. Gamebryo and UE3 are examples of widely used engines, and are also used in a lot of games I know Icycalm likes.

[Melly]

Even proprietary engines are built in a way that's a far cry from the days of yore. In fact, among existing engines and frameworks for game development, many AAA developers 'assemble' games from different parts more than they program them. A quality game can be built from mostly putting pieces together in pre-existing software and using an easy scripting language like Lua to define behaviours, which doesn't even touch on the finer aspects of how the game runs. I'm at least mostly sure that the biggest part of making a game nowadays is content-creation (those lavish graphics take a lot of time, people and money, trust me) and design.

[anime witches]

However, I struggle to see how a developer using this pre-built engine could make a game as deep and nuanced as BlazBlue, Melty Blood, or Guilty.

It wouldn't be hard at all to accomplish with either Fighter Maker or M.U.G.E.N. on the programming/control end of it, both are pretty flexible in that regard. The hurdle most developers encounter is the assets (art, sound, music, etc.). Fighting games take a ton of assets to create and you can't really balance the game well without the assets (since it is done pretty much on a per-frame level with the collision masks laid out based on the animation frames). There are a lot of good references for balancing fighting games out there (Sirlin.net being one of my favorites).

If MUGEN and Fighter Maker were so wonderful I think more good games would come out their engines. Instead, MUGEN games tend to be hilariously unplayable or an excuse to pit Jin Fu-Ha against GIANT ZANGIEF on nicovideo.

As for 2D Fighter Maker, the only game I know of that has been playable on a reasonable level is the above-mentioned Vanguard Princess, which has a relatively basic system. If these engines were really ideal for creating games, why wouldn't doujin developers such as Twilight Frontier, who made Eternal Fighter Zero and Immaterial and Missing Power (I assuming some people here are familiar with these games), or Frontier Aja use it? I have really only dicked around with 2D fighter maker (never touched mugen tbh), but it seems largely a crutch. VP was made by one man, and I'm assuming he needed such a program in order to be able to complete an entire game by himself. But I think this sort of tool might actually hinder developers trying to create the extremely complex fighting engines seen in today's best fighters. Also, Fighter Maker has a really cumbersome practice mode, which is pretty killer in a fighting game. 

You got that wrong. The Gradius formula is not worth repeating in this case because it's being repeated by a Western "indie bum" developer with a pre-built engine and not Icycalm's Overlords From Glorious Nippon.

Uhh...Gradius HAS been repeated for the last twenty-some years, and it's a little stale by now. There are still developers who are pushing 2D shooters in exciting directions -- ZUN, Cave, G-Rev -- and there are still developers who want to do retread old territory without refining, such as the aforementioned indie bum, the doujin bums who made the eXceed series, the dependent capitalist bums who made Thunderforce VI, etc...

Deathsmiles is an average horizontal shooter with lolita goths. Armed Police Batrider is fun, but ultimately standard in its mechanics. Mars Matrix is very unique and interestesting, but built upon the framework laid by Giga Wing. DDPDOJ is nowhere near as good as DDP or DDPDFK.

DOJ is better than DDP or DFK but who cares all three are fucking rad /unsupported opinion

Eat a dick.

 

[Breadcultist]

There's a lot more about what makes code good than the apparent end result. If the game's still good but the code is shitty, the game may not run well on a wider range of computers due to compatibility or performance issues.

So a bad programmer can theoretically make a decent game on one computer. OK, here's some magic: you can only critique this game properly by playing on that machine. Because if you're playing on another machine, you're playing a different game. The game is the playable machine taken as a whole. This is an unusual way to think of a videogame, but this is what Icy thinks.

Is this relevant to anything? No, but ain't it interesting?

OK I was wrong about... no I'm not admitting that yet...

I know about programming! I did a computer science degree! I was just--

What was my point again?

I said I was judging code solely on the end results. I'm not saying I was wrong. But I shouldn't have said that here. My apologies.

In terms of game criticism, I'll concede the point from... someone that this: programming need not be discussed at all.

[Melly]

If MUGEN and Fighter Maker were so wonderful I think more good games would come out their engines. Instead, MUGEN games tend to be hilariously unplayable or an excuse to pit Jin Fu-Ha against GIANT ZANGIEF on nicovideo.

I don't think you understand the people that generally use game-making programs. These programs are an easy way for amateurs to try their hands into making games. And most of them are not interested in learning the finer points of design or to put the work necessary to polish a game to a high-quality state. Polish is in fact the generally most boring and time-consuming aspect of making a game as a whole, and most of those aren't interested in going through that for the craft. You also get plenty of people with ideas like "Wouldn't it be totally awesome if you could fight Giant Zangief with Jin Fu-Ha?". You're judging an engine based on the fact that most games from it are crap, without realizing that the reason they're crap is not the engine, but the people that are using it.

[Pixelthief]

Why can't we have well programmed games with good artistry and just shit on everything else like normal human beings?

Nobody is going to call "Giant Zangief vs. Jin Fu-Ha" a modern art masterpiece. Nobody will be duped into recognizing a pile of tosh for anything but what it is. People can build whatever they want- but only the well done ones will stand out.




btw I'd love to throw my expertise as a programmer in against any of those 'programming snobs' that say that anything not made in C++ isn't 'real' (mind C++ is a HLL from when we grew up). Whether its GM, MMF2, Flash, Java, w/e- it doesn't take any skill at all to identify good coding for what it is.

[C.A. Silbereisen]

Uhh...Gradius HAS been repeated for the last twenty-some years, and it's a little stale by now. There are still developers who are pushing 2D shooters in exciting directions -- ZUN, Cave, G-Rev -- and there are still developers who want to do retread old territory without refining, such as the aforementioned indie bum, the doujin bums who made the eXceed series, the dependent capitalist bums who made Thunderforce VI, etc...

Except Hydorah isn't an exact carbon copy of Gradius. How about you play the game before you jump to conclusions. Likewise you could say Cave has been re-treading the formula of Donpachi for the last 15 years.

[Pixelthief]

A good videogame isn't necessarily well programmed.

Nigga, what.

It's true. Your code can be the ugliest piece of shit, but if it works, it works. The solution to a problem may be a dirty hack, but the computer doesn't care. Inefficiencies tend not to matter as much nowadays, what with Moore's law being fairly accurate and processors being more than capable of fulfilling the task.

And its very true. The code behind Diablo II for example looks like it was written by a group of autistic monkeys, and it was a great game. Its riddled with errors, typechecking failures and nonsensical broken code that would make any respectable software engineer from the last decade cringe. The way simple spells were implemented with elaborately inefficient and ridiculous means are just awful- yet the end product works (more or less). And its a great game nonetheless.

A good game doesn't necessarily need to be programmed well, and no game is programmed perfectly. But every ounce of extra programming finesse you pump into a game will improve it- but by a marginal utility of only so much. And it takes a good project manager to cut that line where you get the most bang for your buck. We could run around with absolutely perfect gold plated code- but we gain so little from such a huge investment, that it is never worth it.

Hence game programming is done at the cusp of what works.

Its not a matter of being 'good' or 'bad' at coding, its a matter of actually getting shit done.

[Melly]

Why can't we have well programmed games with good artistry and just shit on everything else like normal human beings?

Nobody is going to call "Giant Zangief vs. Jin Fu-Ha" a modern art masterpiece. Nobody will be duped into recognizing a pile of tosh for anything but what it is. People can build whatever they want- but only the well done ones will stand out.

That's really the highest value of such engines. anime wizards may think otherwise, but the low barrier of entry means that people that would never touch game development can make their ideas a reality.

Sure, invariably most of those ideas will be barely playable, some not even that. But every once in a while you find a diamond in the rough, a game that has good design, art, sound, etc. A game that wouldn't exist if those barriers of entry hadn't been removed for the developer in question to stop worrying and learn to love game making.

Of course, then we can get into a discussion about the communities around those engines, and if they encourage or discourage people to make higher quality stuff. I think that's a bigger factor on the number of quality games coming from a specific engine than the engine itself. If the engine at least works as intended, of course. I can't say for sure, but I haven't heard too many good things from the main MUGEN community, but that might just be coming from vocal minorities.

[Pixelthief]

Sure, invariably most of those ideas will be barely playable, some not even that. But every once in a while you find a diamond in the rough, a game that has good design, art, sound, etc. A game that wouldn't exist if those barriers of entry hadn't been removed for the developer in question to stop worrying and learn to love game making.

And does it diminish the value of those games, their respect in the eyes of its users? Perhaps. But people will identify it for what it is, and if it is popular it will be popular on its own merits. If its a well made game with library graphics and library engine and library music- its still a well made game.

If someone takes credit someone elses intellectual property you can hound all over it, but theres no sense in taking an elitist approach to games, saying that those created by someone using XXXX or YYYY are not legitimate. Jealousy? Snobbishness? It doesn't really matter- you make no impact in the end.

And frankly I'm all about the utilitarianism. People can whine all they want, but it won't accomplish anything. People can make bad games, but people will see them for what they are- bad games. If you want to get noticed, make a good game, and that is it. Discussing or complaining about it is all very vain

[C.A. Silbereisen]

The bottom line is: What makes games good isn't programming, it's design. Doom would have been a piece of shit, a tech demo, without its finely balanced gameplay and excellent level design. Its revolutionary engine enabled this stuff of course but I find it difficult to imagine that that's the reason for its continued popularity. Programming isn't the only craft associated with game development, far from it.

[Melly]

Plus, a lot of those crappy games come from people that are just having fun with the program. They're doing silly/stupid things because it's fun. Which game developer hasn't made a tiny, retarded game for a laugh? A person's fun is hers to choose for others to leave be, regardless of how 'meaningless' it can seem for those with more 'taste'.

[Pixelthief]

The bottom line is: What makes games good isn't programming, it's design. Doom would have been a piece of shit, a tech demo, without its finely balanced gameplay and excellent level design. Its revolutionary engine enabled this stuff of course but I find it difficult to imagine that that's the reason for its continued popularity. Programming isn't the only craft associated with game development, far from it.

Ding ding ding
Good games are made by good games designers, by good project managers controlling good artists good musicians good programmers and good publicists- a sum of the parts.

Plus, a lot of those crappy games come from people that are just having fun with the program. They're doing silly/stupid things because it's fun. Which game developer hasn't made a tiny, retarded game for a laugh? A person's fun is hers to choose for others to leave be, regardless of how 'meaningless' it came seem for those with more 'taste'.

And it will always play a very important role in attracting newer users who will eventually grow into better and better programmers, designers, artists and musicians.

[quash]

Deathsmiles is an average horizontal shooter with lolita goths.

No, Deathsmiles is a BAD horizontal shooter with lolita goths.

Armed Police Batrider is fun, but ultimately standard in its mechanics.

What the fuck does this even mean?

Mars Matrix is very unique and interestesting, but built upon the framework laid by Giga Wing.

You say that as if it's a bad thing. All creative work is derivative you twit, and if Mars Matrix is an improvement upon an already great game, what reason is there to hold that against it? It isn't "innovative" enough for the same people who hail Braid and Cave Story as masterpieces?

DDPDOJ is nowhere near as good as DDP or DDPDFK.

And none of those are nowhere near as good as Ketsui. Your point?

Really, this just comes across as ridiculous Japan worship.

More like well deserved praise. That Hydorah game doesn't improve the horizontal shooting formula as well as Sol Feace (made in 1994, mind you) from what I saw in that trailer (though I will say it shows promise to be perhaps the first Western indie game I can stand to play through, so maybe I'll give it a try sometime).

Given that every game you listed is on par with Hydorah in terms of originality

Woah woah woah, hold on just a second. You're saying that the developer that fucking PIONEERED the STG genre, made their own hardware platforms JUST FOR THESE GAMES, and put practically every other developer in the genre to shame is on par with an indie game that probably doesn't even scratch the fucking surface of what it takes to be a great STG?

I'm not saying they aren't good shmups (I like them!)

I'll bet spending 9 credits to get through Ikaruga on Easy is one hell of a labor of love. Maybe I'm not giving you enough credit though; perhaps you can clear Raptor: Call of the Shadows.

but criticizing Hydorah for not innovating enough when only one of the games you listed was "innovative" is baffling.

I like how you put innovative in quotes, as if it is a stupid and largely misused word (which it is), and yet you are seriously, unironically, using it against that guy.

Hydorah, Limbo, Castle Crashers, and other games you proceed to list in this thread neither look nor play like ass.

Actually, they do.

Each game has very tightly-polished controls

Nope.

and visual style is open to interpretation.

What is this, English class?

I generally define an "ass-looking game" as one with muddy textures or inconsistent art style, and none of these games listed below fall into that category.

Probably because you have no idea how 2D graphics are supposed to look. Do you play your anime soap operas in ZSNES with 2XSAI enabled at 1600x1200 to make them look better?

Eat a dick. People have a subjective opinion of what is fun. Just because you happen to enjoy playing shmups and fighters that look and play very similar to one another doesn't mean everybody does.

Yes, because anyone that plays fighting games will tell you that the differences between Samurai Shodown and Melty Blood are fucking miniscule; let alone the differences between Street Fighter 2 and 3 (which even a troglodyte like you should be able to observe)!

If I handed Melty Blood to the average person, they'd be confused and bewildered by the thoroughly weeaboo nature of the game.

The average person, let alone the average "gamer", has no interest in playing games whatsoever (and waving your arms in front of a webcam from 2002 does not count, nor does playing a plastic guitar). Even more of those people have no clue what anime is, so yeah, they would be confused and bewildered by a complex game and it's absolutely wonderful aesthetic value (has anyone on this forum ever drawn a sprite by hand? No, your tablet does not count).

If I handed them Limbo or Super Meat Boy, they'd get right into it. Different games have different niches. I wouldn't presume to compare BioShock to Civilization.

Assuming they didn't just punch you square in your neckbeard enclosed jaw for asking them to play a shitty video game (or worse yet, TWO shitty video games), they may very well "get right into" Limbo or Super Meat Boy; as they are games made for the lowest common denominator by the lowest common denominator, it would only make sense.

That being said, I do love Arcana Heart and Melty Blood.

Masturbating to the anime girls on the select screen does not count as "loving" a game, I'm afraid.

This is quite possibly the saddest thing I've read in this thread so far.

Someone like you would become sad at the notion of someone loving video games. I spent $200 on my HRAP2 SA back in 2009 so I could play two games that cost me $20 each and a bunch of games I burned; I plan on spending much more to obtain the boards and cabinets for some of these games as well. If this sounds ridiculous to you, I'm afraid you don't love video games as much as you think you do.

Fuck ooooooooooooooff.

I wouldn't mind if you fucked off -- right the fuck out of my hobby and through the stratosphere.

Central theories on games? What central theories? He has none. Please elucidate what about Icycalm is so particularly revolutionary or requires refutation. Most of his statements (buried underneath piles of bullshit) tend to be non-controversial, such as "sequels are not necessarily bad" and "games are meant to entertain."

So non-controversial, the mere mention of his name or his website sends tremors through forums such as this one.

PS: If you really liked games, you would understand them, and maybe offer criticism instead of stupid baseless claims of WHICH GAMES ARE BETTER. Christ, it's like reading a post from GameFAQs.

My thoughts exactly. Unfortunately, you wouldn't be able to understand any of my criticisms of games like BlazBlue or Tekken, because you're too fucking dense to understand how they work, otherwise I would write up a rather extensive list. Your "love" of video games at work I guess.

Icycalm has no central theory on games more than anybody else does. He's an empty shell who calls himself a critic and wraps himself in the veneer of vitriol. Out of any critic to follow obsessively, you sure picked the worst one.

I will say that I find the vast majority of the reviews on insomnia to be subpar or just plain bad (particularly the ones for GTAIV, Captain Commando and Last Blade), but when icycalm gleams, he shines.

http://insomnia.ac/reviews/xbox/gunvalkyrie/

I dare you to find another review of any game on the internet (or even in print) that comes anywhere close to this. You may not understand how good this review is if you've never played the game (which I don't expect you to; after all, it's the single best 3D action game ever made, and it is that because it is demanding of the player), but it covers absolutely every aspect of the game down to the finest detail, and even features an expert editorial towards the end on how he felt the game could be improved.

Japan called, they said their dick is too raw from your rampant sucking.

I could easily replace Japan with Derek Yu and it would apply to 99% of this forum.

He (anime witches) is entirely right though. Even the best fighting games made using a premade engine (Vanguard Princess being probably the best of them) fall short of Guilty Gear, Virtua Fighter, Street Fighter and KOF (I named these series specifically because they all ended up taking glitches that arose as a result of their developers MAKING THEIR OWN ENGINE and implementing those glitches into later iterations of said series; something well beyond the comprehension of most everyone here, I'm sure. This, by the way, should quell the sentiment of "craftsmanship does not effect the final product" being spouted in this thread to anyone in the least bit intelligent).

[ink.inc]

 

[deathtotheweird]

I have a headache now.

[RobF]

Can we just make it clear that the only tremors Icy causes are ones in my pants from the sudden urge to piss myself with laughter at both him and his cult members?

Thanks.

[anime witches]

dear quash,

you don't like deathsmiles

but I also have an HRAP 2 SA, it's a hella nice stick

so we should be friends

love,

anime witches

P.S. This guy is fucking smart and knows his shit, casuals take note:

I named these series specifically because they all ended up taking glitches that arose as a result of their developers MAKING THEIR OWN ENGINE and implementing those glitches into later iterations of said series

[C.A. Silbereisen]

(I named these series specifically because they all ended up taking glitches that arose as a result of their developers MAKING THEIR OWN ENGINE and implementing those glitches into later iterations of said series;

This has absolutely nothing to do with supreme programming prowess. Just like the other Icycalm mouthpieces in this thread, you're not only completely talking out of your ass, you're also retarded enough to dispute claims based on the knowledge and experience of people who actually know how to do what you're talking about.

I'm currently feeling like a guitarist being lectured about guitar techniques by a Rockband player.