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[C.A. Silbereisen]

Also, as for representing Icycalm: I guess I'm sorry I assumed that because you signed up here on TIGS to post in an Icycalm thread and defend Icycalm's views, you are representing him, but it's not a far-fetched conclusion to come to, is it?

[RCIX]

I'm of half a mind that he's [quash] icycalm himself, given his arguments. Now, he doesn't quote philosophers enough or use the word "fagot", but...

I insult to make my posts more fun to read for those who aren't being attacked by it (as those who are being attacked usually aren't going to bother reading it anyways). As for icycalm, the only interaction I've ever had with him was when he banned me from his forum within my first two posts.

And yet, with posts like this:

You remind me of a passive aggressive loser; the kind that moderates most forums.

you're sure acting a lot like him...

[C.A. Silbereisen]

No, he isn't. The story of him getting banned (ironically for being a "yesman") is legit and Icycalm doesn't seem like the kind of guy who posts anonymously.

[Melly]

I think Icycalm would make people quite certain that it was truly him if he posted here. If he wasn't afraid of an environment in which he doesn't have complete control.

[Dragonmaw]

A bunch of pretentious bullshit

Hey making wild assumptions about the person making statements really doesn't help your argument. I would bother to defend my arcade history if it were anybody else, but given that you're just here to fight (poorly) for icycalm, I'm not really inclined to actually go in-depth. Let's just say that almost every needless assumption you make (I'm not good at shmups, I can't tell the difference between fighters, I suck off Derek Yu) are resoundingly wrong. My point was that the average person, if shown Ketsui and DoDonPachi - or Melty Blood and Guilty Gear, or Street Fighter 2 and 3 - side by side, they would not be able to tell the mechanical difference, only the graphical.

Personally? I adore shmup games and I think they are wildly innovative. But I don't think they are more different from their predecessors than Hydorah is from its predecessor. Once again, it's a subjective measure of distance.

Also, I was not comparing Hydorah to CAVE. That's a nonsensical comparison, where the fuck are you getting this from? I was specifically comparing it to the games listed, all of which are either sequels that tweak an established formula (not a bad thing) or are relatively safe in their execution. Once again, not a bad thing.

Basically, you just made a bunch of wild assumptions based on the fact that I happened to defend a game which I think looks, plays, and sounds great. Just because I think Hydorah is a great game doesn't mean I think Ketsui isn't. They aren't mutually exclusive.

I wonder why I bother even explaining myself to people that obviously don't even care to read properly.

[Pixelthief]

No really, I'm serious- besides the back and forth insults, what the heck are you guys supposed to be arguing about? Theres no points being argued either way, nothing at the base of this. What is the issue you people are divided on?

[ஒழுக்கின்மை]

i'm disappointed in your followers, icycalm. show yourself! give us a real battle.

[Derek]

They aren't representing him, but they're biting a lot of his lines, like the Pinto/Porsche comparison. By the way, where is Ashford Pride and the other guy in all this?

If MUGEN and Fighter Maker were so wonderful I think more good games would come out their engines. Instead, MUGEN games tend to be hilariously unplayable or an excuse to pit Jin Fu-Ha against GIANT ZANGIEF on nicovideo.

That video is funny as hell. That IS wonderful. On the other hand, Card Saga Wars also came out of the MUGEN community: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rnBRTEEfBw

I know you guys don't drive Porsches everywhere. Do you eat at 5-star restaurants for every meal? And only date supermodels? What happens when you don't - you just feel shitty about yourself and wait until you can go home and play a $200 Japanese shmup?

The obsessiveness with complexity and mechanics is great, but at the expense of being able to enjoy some genuinely funny or interesting games like, say, Space Funeral... it doesn't seem worth it. I'd rather be a "swine".

[Breadcultist]

@C.A. Sinclair:
Those are some nice quotes from Icy. I haven't seen any real responses to their content. If I recall correctly, the programming/engine part of the discussion really started when anime witches used 'Flash' as a term of derision...

As for representing people, what incited me to register and post here, today, was RobF quoting ME. I came here to defend myself, first and foremost.

And actually, I've been considering registering here for a while. For game development discussion, funnily enough!

Sorry to disappoint you Paul.

[RCIX]

At least AshfordPride stormed out in the latest art games fiasco thread, possibly Anarkex instead.

Side question: If you're gone from these forms like 80% of the time (since you missed said thread) and AFAIK you arent working on a game, what ARE you doing anyway? Edit: i'm an idiot, you're working on the XBLIG Spelunky >.<

[ஒழுக்கின்மை]

Altogether, my enthusiasm for the game has cost me enough money to buy a car, a few years of my life, and several points off my GPA when I graduated from college.

The only way game design could be redeemed is if one saw it AS A GAME. As a creative activity, demanding skill and effort, etc. Seen in that light, though still inferior to other forms of game-playing, it can be redeemed. But I ALREADY AM engaged in a creative activity that demands skill and effort: and indeed the most demanding such activity that a human being can engage in. So I am all sorted out in that respect. What I look for in videogames, then, is to enhance the enjoyment of myself on my downtimes: to brighten up an evening, for example, after a hard day's surfing. Or thinking and writing. Or travelling and reading. Etc. etc. Which by the way is the only healthy way to engage in videogames, or any other artform for that matter. Not looking for "meaning" in them, but for enhancing the enjoyment of your downtimes, your rest periods from the serious business of life: which is war. -icycalm

i sense some contradiction here -- do you disagree with icycalm that games should just be between productive activities, for the enjoyment of downtimes, not a primary concern? do you instead believe that games are the primary concern of life? if not, why spend so much of your money and life on them? or are they just so addictive that you couldn't resist?

(and yeah, i know you guys don't necessary have to agree with everything icycalm says, but if you paint us as all agreeing with what rohrer (for instance) says then the reverse is fair game.)

[C.A. Silbereisen]

I think the overarching question in this discussion is: Why do you think your taste is absolute and why do you think it's so important to have "good" or "consistent" taste? What kind of pedant cares about what other people enjoy? What's the point of being bitter about it?

I, for one, became a much happier and more well-rounded person when I dropped pretensions of good, consistent taste and started playing, listening, reading and watching what I liked instead of what the complex "good taste" construct I built in my mind said it was "OK" to like.

[Melly]

Cards Sagas Wars looks better every time I see it. I'm SO hoping it doesn't get shut down by publishers. I'm gonna have to be ready to grab it quick when it comes out in any case.

No really, I'm serious- besides the back and forth insults, what the heck are you guys supposed to be arguing about? Theres no points being argued either way, nothing at the base of this. What is the issue you people are divided on?

I don't think there was an issue of division in the first place. The thread was created to talk about Icycalm's vitriol and the fact Rohrer somehow saw fit to waste his time trying to make an argument with the guy. If anything Paul seems to have created it half out of sarcasm (at least considering the title), though he's the kind of guy that loves to discuss anything and everything with the worst of the worst.

Speaking of NotSoCalm, I find it funny how he bans users based not only on them disagreeing with him, but also from nitpicking their introductory posts, looking for any sign of things he can contradict with. Even when all the post does is rain praise and pledge loyalty to his community.

I, for one, became a much happier and more well-rounded person when I dropped pretensions of good, consistent taste and started playing, listening, reading and watching what I liked instead of what the complex "good taste" construct I built in my mind said it was "OK" to like.

Agree 100%

[Derek]

I, for one, became a much happier and more well-rounded person when I dropped pretensions of good, consistent taste and started playing, listening, reading and watching what I liked instead of what the complex "good taste" construct I built in my mind said it was "OK" to like.

I'm sorry, I think you meant to say a "subhuman fagot".

At least AshfordPride stormed out in the latest art games fiasco thread, possibly Anarkex instead.

Side question: If you're gone from these forms like 80% of the time (since you missed said thread) and AFAIK you arent working on a game, what ARE you doing anyway? Edit: i'm an idiot, you're working on the XBLIG Spelunky >.<

If nothing else, you have to appreciate how much art games piss people off. Icycalm gets so much satisfaction from trolling you'd think he'd appreciate the fact that Jason can get the same BETTER results as him from programming a simple video game.

Yeah, I'm working on Spelunky! For XBLA, though.

[anime witches]

I don't know what anime witch's circumstances are like presently, so perhaps he's doing ok (which would mean he managed his time and money just fine despite the lavishness), but more information is necessary in this case.

lol, let's hold a congressional hearing on it

don't worry guys, I'm doing A-OK, I have a nice car, my family loves me, and I rape bitches with my sexy fuzzy setups 

Anyway, I am no game developer, I used to code maze games and insult generators on my TI-83 in highschool and did RPGMaker shit as well. I realized the shit I made was of no interest to anyone but myself, so I quit making games. So maybe I'm not Shigeru fucking Miyamoto, but I don't understand the big scrape-up over programming. All I said was more advanced engines allow people to do more advanced things with games (ya know, like why no one uses RPG Maker 2k anymore). Apparently this is wrong, and design is the most important aspect of a game and sloppy programming doesn't matter. Well, I wish you guys could clarify this for me, but does sloppy programming equal a simplistic engine? Where did sloppy programming come in? How can one design all the wonderful complex things they want to put in a game if the engine is insufficient? (yes I know that Sinclair already pointed out that some developers don't want to do wonderful things, I call them pussies)ALL I WANTED TO TALK ABOUT WAS WHAT KIND OF COOL THINGS YOU CAN DO WITH AN ENGINE? 

Also, full-disclosure compartment, I came upon this thread via insomnia's forums. Big whoop?

Lastly, @Derek, yes Saturday Morning Mayhem is actually really amusing and that video is hilarious, but people play it once a year or so while fucking hammered whereas good games are fun all the time because they encourage players to constantly adapt, try new things, or compete with your opponent.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை]

i think it's a good idea to have your own personal value system, and to know what qualities you look for in games. particularly for game developers. i have my own system too: i know in what exact order i value the zelda games, for instance, from most favorite to least, and i know what qualities and attributes of those games are responsible for that ordering. but it's just never-ending to try to impose that on others, people are still going to like and play romero's new happy animal facebook game, no matter how many times they are called weaklings. if an action does not produce change, it's wasted energy; use the principle of least motion.

[Breadcultist]

I'm slightly embarrassed about silly things I said in my previous life. I must walk the path of penance.

Having consistent standards means being able to rank games as better or worse. Doesn't prevent you from enjoying mini-games, cheap games, etc.

[Melly]

And we're adding past-lives into the mix now.

[Blademasterbobo]

[...]
Someone like you would become sad at the notion of someone loving video games. I spent $200 on my HRAP2 SA back in 2009 so I could play two games that cost me $20 each and a bunch of games I burned; I plan on spending much more to obtain the boards and cabinets for some of these games as well. If this sounds ridiculous to you, I'm afraid you don't love video games as much as you think you do.
[...]
My thoughts exactly. Unfortunately, you wouldn't be able to understand any of my criticisms of games like BlazBlue or Tekken, because you're too fucking dense to understand how they work, otherwise I would write up a rather extensive list. Your "love" of video games at work I guess.
[...]

[...]
Assuming they didn't just punch you square in your neckbeard enclosed jaw for asking them to play a shitty video game (or worse yet, TWO shitty video games), they may very well "get right into" Limbo or Super Meat Boy; as they are games made for the lowest common denominator by the lowest common denominator, it would only make sense.
[...]

lol

[PleasingFungus]

Having consistent standards means being able to rank games as better or worse.

I don't really understand why that's a valuable thing to do.

I play games. I enjoy them or I don't. When I stop enjoying them, I stop playing them. If I do enjoy a particular game, I recommend it to friends who I think would also enjoy it. Either way, the only time I'd be capable of ranking a game is after I finished playing it (either by beating it or getting bored with it), and in that case, why bother? Any ranking wouldn't matter for me, because I'm not going to play the game again regardless of its ranking, or for anyone else, because other people will have different tastes and preferences.

Why do you rank games?

(I hope this doesn't sound confrontational. Your last post was one of the least aggressive in the thread; it just struck me as odd, and I was curious as to whether you could elaborate.)