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[Paul Eres]

derek's chapters actually remind me of nietzsche's ecce homo, which had chapter titles such as:

- why i am so wise
- why i am so clever
- why i write such good books
- why i am a destiny

(i'm not making these up, these are actual chapter titles in a nietzsche book. admittedly a late nietzsche book, after his madness which would eventually leave him completely incapacitated for the rest of his life was beginning to show signs of beginning.)

@shig - art game to me is more like three distinct genres. basically there are three types of art game:

- pure exploration/aesthetic/atmospheric games like seiklus, knytt, etc.
- symbolic games like passage, the marriage, etc.
- social commentary games like muslim massacre, super columbine massacre rpg, etc.

sometimes these genres are mixed (for instance, i'd call fatale by tale of tales a combination of the first two genres), but usually any game called an art game falls into at least one of these three genres

but yeah, i'd have no problem with people just using 'exploration game', 'symbolic game', or 'social commentary game' instead of 'art game', but art game is shorter to write out. they are also frequently all forms of 'notgame', games where the main challenge is to contemplate or think about the game rather than to pass the game's obstacles. in that sense they can be just as challenging as any platformer or shmup (games which challenge the player's worldview).

[Derek]

Bleh, what's the point. It's not like any of the bums will ever learn anything — it's not like they EVEN WANT to learn anything. It's clear, after all, that none of them seems interested in ever improving any of their games. Granted that they start out at rock-bottom; yet one could even take this as the perfect opportunity to set off on the path to improvement, since after all there's nowhere else for them to go from there but up. But do you ever see them attempt to make, for example, a Braid 2, a Spelunky 4, or a Flower 6? No — they are only interested with bungling ("innovating") one genre or subgenre, and then straightaway moving on to bungle another. And yet Braid, unlike every other "indie" game I've come across, could be EXTREMELY EASILY improved to something genuinely worthwhile, to a masterpiece even, with barely anything more than the addition of a little common-sensical game design. Blow already has a great, unique even engine; moreover he also has a master pixel artist at his disposal, thereby having already cleared a hurdle that no other "indie" bum has ever cleared. To be sure, Hellman can't design characters worth a shit, but he CAN render them into bitmap form, and he CAN make drop-dead gorgeous backgrounds — so if Blow would just invest a little of all that money Braid has made and hire someone who can design proper characters, then drop the retarded "mature" overtones and go for a full-blown high definition caricatural style, he'd have nothing less than a visual masterpiece to rival even the best Japanese efforts. Not a bad start for an indie bum who spends half the year giving retarded lectures and interviews to whatever imbecile with a microphone is stupid enough to listen! Then he could do away with the retarded save-states and make THE ENTIRE FUCKING GAME playable in ONE-TIME ARCADE-STYLE SESSIONS ONLY, FORCING the indie fags, TO GO THROUGH THE ENTIRE THING ON A SINGLE LIFE (but at the same time shortening the game to 30 or 40 minutes to make this feat feasible), then restrict the use of the rewind mechanic to a depleting gauge of some kind, and make the player replenish it by killing enemies, for instance, in some specific, dangerous fashion, structuring the entire level design around this mechanic — and he'd have a bona fide action masterpiece at his hands. Or, if he decided to pursue the puzzle instead of the action route, he could learn how to do that from Lup Salad: by designing a ton of stages, many of which would have to be GENIUNELY "DEVILISHLY" TRICKY, stages that would have the player looking at the screen and scratching his head for half an hour or more without making any progress whatsoever — and not just one or two but MANY of them, with the entire game lasting at least 20 to 30 hours, if not more — and that'd be the way to do it. Braid shows clear signs that, unlike the World of Goo bums, Blow SHOULD be able to design REAL puzzles if he tried and knew what to aim for, so it's by no means far fetched to assume that he could.

So how about it, Blow? How about you lift your head from the circlejerk for a moment, wipe all the yellowish encrusted jizz that's dripping from your chin, and take a look at the history of the artform you are so furiously engaged in slandering and debasing? Videogames existed before 2005, you know. The genre you are bungling has a long and glorious history behind it — how about you set aside the other bums' screensavers and study it with a little bit more respect and reverence for a while? You and Hellman are on another level entirely from all the "indie" bums I've so far come across: you seriously have a shot at one day become genuine developers — but you must work at it, damn it! Braid 2 could be your real breakthrough, Blow — a full, complete, genuine game; a game that would have a shot at surviving long after the disingenuous pseudo-intellectual propaganda your buddies are furiously generating has died down and come to nothing — so why don't you do yourself a favor and think about it?

I have to say, these last two paragraphs of his Braid review are pretty magnificent. And he gives David due credit for the gorgeous artwork, which is nice (one correction, though - David did not design the look of Tim, the game's protagonist).

"You seriously have a shot at one day become genuine developers — but you must work at it, damn it!"

Haha, I really like that! I'm serious, too... I'm not making fun of the typo. It just strikes me as very earnest and hopeful, but slanderous at the same time. It's like, "Damnit, guys! Of all the subhumans, you have the chance to rise above... but... you... MUST... WORK HARD! TAKE MY HAND!"

[Breadcultist]

Yo, Paul. Those aren't genres. Real game genres are platformer, shooter, text adventure, etc. You can have:
- exploration platformers, in 3D or 2D
- symbolic shooters
- propagandistic (aka ''social commentary) turn based strategy games

So they're not genres. They're just, like, themes, that could be incorporated into many genres.

They might pretend to be their own special new genres to trick people into not applying to them the standards by which you normally judge their proper genres(!).

[Paul Eres]

@breadcultist

what are the defining characteristics of genres? e.g. how do you determine which are genres and which are not genres? you name some genres and say some things are not genres, but don't really explain why.

another question: are these genres or themes? tower defense, hidden object game, rhythm game, stealth game.

[Chris Whitman]

I am creating philosophy higher than Baudrillard's; writings that people will be reading ENTIRE CENTURIES AFTER EVERYONE HAS FORGOTTEN ALL ABOUT YOUR BOTCHED ATTEMPTS AT A PLATFORMER, and "I have no understanding of what it's like to create something", lol.

Oh man... I had no idea he had such delusions of grandeur. This is even better than when he tries to explain art history from a standpoint of total ignorance of art history.

[C.A. Sinner]

@Paul: He defines genres by mechanics. I thought that was pretty clear by now.

They might pretend to be their own special new genres to trick people into not applying to them the standards by which you normally judge their proper genres(!).

More like they're using the basic tools of a particular genre (or multiple genres) to do something else. For instance the developer of  an exploration platformer might not aim to make a "good" platformer (in the mechanical sense), but create an interesting world for the player to explore via the basic gameplay of a platformer.

[Gimym TILBERT]

I'm glad to be an artfag with people like icyqualm, not everybody want uber macho anime, I like them but not there is only that.

By the way he is pretty much uninformed as any of the game he claim "should have sequel" are actually improvement on a formula, they expend the tradition...

Time manipulation game exist before Braid (Blinx to name only one), braid give the genre a name, a visibility and an icon (like mario is for platformer).

Spelunky introduce roguelike system into a platformer (and is having somekind of improved "sequels" on XBLA") and introduce good challenging procedural generation for platformer (which was half ass until this game but not new).

Flow is a dot eating game in the vain of snake except less shallow and it could be argue that flower is a spiritual sequel with similar mechanics. He resurrect an old genre and improve him.

They improve on formula by introducing variation or plain visual impact. ON my eyes they are hardly uber innovative and their genuinely high polish game.

Warning - while you were typing 4 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post. 

[Paul Eres]

if genres are mechanics, what are the defining mechanics of a text adventure game? or a puzzle game, for that matter? (puzzle games often have vastly different mechanics, yet they are all grouped together.)

[substance]

Oh man... I had no idea he had such delusions of grandeur.

There is nothing wrong with the ambitious nature of his statement, perhaps if you set a goal for yourself that high you will one day come close to it?

[bento_smile]

It's not hard to write a book, at least for someone as "awesome" as Icycalm.   If he has enough guts, he could look for a publisher now. Otherwise, he is way behind the rest of us "artfags" who have written books/worked on AAA games/done stuff.

[C.A. Sinner]

It's not "ambitious" because he thinks he's already accomplished it.

if genres are mechanics, what are the defining mechanics of a text adventure game? or a puzzle game, for that matter? (puzzle games often have vastly different mechanics, yet they are all grouped together.)

Yeah, I disagree with Breadcultist on this too, but I don't think discussing the definition of "genre" here is going to get us any further, so I'm willing to argue with him on his terms. I know what he means and that's good enough for me. If I have to invent a couple new terms in the process to accommodate to his use of language,  so be it.

[Paul Eres]

yeah, it doesn't particularly matter to the discussion whether you call art games a style, theme, or genre anyway. i believe they're a family of three related genres, but it doesn't hurt my point to call them a style or theme either.

[substance]

Otherwise, he is way behind the rest of us "artfags" who have written books/worked on AAA games/done stuff.

It's quite amusing how often this false assertion is repeated. It's derived from the typical "You don't like that game? Why don't you make a better one yourself!" mentality present in your typical gamespot/IGN/etc. banter.

Just because you've done some "work", doesn't mean you're "ahead" of someone else. Indeed, someone who has done nothing at all, but just sat there pondering the entire time that icycalm has spent reviewing the disgusting monstrosities some of you have been creating, would be the one who has closed the distance.

In the field of thought, it is time combined with your capacity to use it, that is most important. Stringing together random bits of nonsense into a book, would be wasting that time.

[Derek]

Dude, just link the goddamn icycalm article that makes your point instead of trying to make it yourself.

[bento_smile]

It's quite amusing how often this false assertion is repeated. It's derived from the typical "You don't like that game? Why don't you make a better one yourself!" mentality present in your typical gamespot/IGN/etc. banter.

Just because you've done some "work", doesn't mean you're "ahead" of someone else. Indeed, someone who has done nothing at all, but just sat there pondering the entire time that icycalm has spent reviewing the disgusting monstrosities some of you have been creating, would be the one who has closed the distance.

In the field of thought, it is time combined with your capacity to use it, that is most important. Stringing together random bits of nonsense into a book, would be wasting that time.

It's less that, and more that if he wants people to read his words in 100 years, printing them is safer and more valid than leaving them on the internet. But as you say, stringing random bits of nonsense into a book is a waste of time.