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[bento_smile]

Action involves pressing the right button at the right time (i.e. the reflex requirement). Or pressing the analogue stick at the right angle for the right length of time, or enduring a butting mashing segment. Physical stuff.
RPG involves taking on the role of a character (seems like a bit of an odd-one-out here. Is this a mechanical or thematic label? Let's ignore it since it's not relevant).
Strategy is figuring out the right sequence of actions, planning ahead to achieve some goal.
Puzzle is, I think, sort of like strategy, but solving problems with a more exact, definite answer.

Interesting! Actually, defining things more broadly is interesting... (As it's tangental to the art game debates, but relates as I think it's worth considering what a game is mechanically before what it is artistically.)

I think most of these genres (survival horror, exploration platformer etc) are more just a way to let the player know what they're in for. I wonder if exploration platformers put such emphasis on exploration as a counter to the bunch of platformers dubbed as "collect 'em ups". You know it's going to be a platformer, but also that it might not have any jumping on enemies or collecting coins.

I don't know if these terms are really to avoid judgement though. If your platform controls suck, they suck no matter what type of platform game you're making.

(Sorry, only quoted part of the post to avoid too much text  )

[Dustin Smith]

not every musician wants to be a rock star. not every platformer wants to be smb3. sometimes hopping and climbing about is enough.

i don't bitch on jesus lizard's last.fm page because they aren't as polished as nirvana's nevermind.

[Samtagonist]

not every musician wants to be a rock star. not every platformer wants to be smb3. sometimes hopping and climbing about is enough.

i don't bitch on jesus lizard's last.fm page because they aren't as polished as nirvana's nevermind.

The problem with this is that it's the easiest way for an artist to dodge criticism.  Just because I didn't fail my personal goal doesn't mean I can't fail a broader goal of failing to meet or exceed standards set in place by another piece.  Anyone could just adjust their objective as need be, stating that they intended to make exactly what they did.  By no means should that absolve them from criticism.

But the problem is that this sort of talk doesn't really place the game/whatever in question on the map.  I can call one game better than the other, but when you say one game only set out to do this and did it it suddenly rockets the game into it's own little pocket so far away from the gradient of value judgment that it becomes very uncomfortable to place it.  I have no problem saying a child's drawing isn't as good as an artist, and the problem is that people are saying that we should considering something or other about the child's lack of ability and goal to only make a scribble, but the fact still stands that his work will never hang anywhere else but a fridge. 

[Breadcultist]

not every platformer wants to be smb3. sometimes hopping and climbing about is enough.

Enough for what? Enough for who? If you're a lover of dem jumpan gaems, and you've played SMB1 to death, SMB3 will offer you a lot more.

Move on to Knytt, and you'll notice a step forward in technology (hi res, better quality sound). But a trimming down, a scaling back, a 'streamlining' (if you want to be nice) of complexity and difficulty. And yeah, that might be enough to play. I liked it while it lasted, believe it or not!

But really, isn't the value in Knytt supposed to be something it has, rather than something it lacks? I mean that atmosphere. Every location looks different. Even if not very well drawn. That carried me through to the end.

Now I'm still looking for more complex mushrooms to bounce off or something.

I played Knytt Stories too. It's small step forward in complexity. Why did Nifflas do that? Cause it's better! Everyone secretly knows Icy is right.

[mirosurabu]

Now, mistaking one genre (in terms of mechanics) for another is bound to cause confused criticism. That's what you (or someone here, can't be bothered to check...) said about Icy's Flower review. I still haven't heard what genre the game is in...?

But what you're saying is the possibility of an even worse mistake, to criticise a game in terms of mechanical complexity and all that good stuff, when the game just isn't 'supposed' to be judged in those terms from the view of ANY game genre at all.... but instead as... a place to explore or something.

Flower is adventure game.

[Breadcultist]

And Knytt is a dating simulation, rite?

[Udderdude]

After the recent influx of Icycalm lapdogs, even Icycalm haters from outside TIGS are joining the fray.

I don't hate the guy, far from it. His lunacy is a constant source of amusement for me.

Also I am a developer myself, and have had one of my games posted on the front page before.  Guess I should go post in the introduction forum or something like that

[Absurdist]

not every platformer wants to be smb3. sometimes hopping and climbing about is enough.

Enough for what? Enough for who? If you're a lover of dem jumpan gaems, and you've played SMB1 to death, SMB3 will offer you a lot more.

Move on to Knytt, and you'll notice a step forward in technology (hi res, better quality sound). But a trimming down, a scaling back, a 'streamlining' (if you want to be nice) of complexity and difficulty. And yeah, that might be enough to play. I liked it while it lasted, believe it or not!

But really, isn't the value in Knytt supposed to be something it has, rather than something it lacks? I mean that atmosphere. Every location looks different. Even if not very well drawn. That carried me through to the end.

Now I'm still looking for more complex mushrooms to bounce off or something.

I played Knytt Stories too. It's small step forward in complexity. Why did Nifflas do that? Cause it's better! Everyone secretly knows Icy is right.

Do you believe that for each genre there is a perfect game, and that all games should continue to build upon older games until that perfect game is achieved?

[Eric McQuiggan]

Arguing about genre is a fool's errand. Why waste your time deciding what arbitrary categories to which something belongs when you can talk about what makes it compelling to some people.

Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post.

I think that is a common opinion.

EDIT:
That or, there is a current perfect game for each genre and every game needs to strive for that high water mark, encompassing all beneficial elements of games before it, if that is achieved, it becomes the new high water mark. A game that doesn't strive for that greatness is a wasted chance.

again, not my opinion, but I believe a common one.

[Dustin Smith]

obviously plato's theory of forms, blah blah blah
 
 

peace

EDIT: if you're going to say there isn't room for both smb3 and knytt, fuck you. knytt stories sucks compared to knytt by the way, needless complexity=/=better.

[mirosurabu]

And Knytt is a dating simulation, rite?

And you are mocking machine, rite?

No. I mean, no, Knytt ain't simulation, just an adventure game.


You can easily tell which category game falls in by observing what people like about it. That's all that matters, in my opinion. That's how people came up with established genres in the first place. It's not like we knew about these genres long before we made first games.

[bento_smile]

To me, the game Flower seems most similar to is Katamari Damacy, as both have the goal of collect stuff to get bigger and/or advance the level. Collecting in Flower is more significant than flying (especially as the things you collect are placed so close to the ground.)

[Dragonmaw]

Thank Mesh for this amazing picture.

[Absurdist]

That or, there is a current perfect game for each genre and every game needs to strive for that high water mark, encompassing all beneficial elements of games before it, if that is achieved, it becomes the new high water mark. A game that doesn't strive for that greatness is a wasted chance.

again, not my opinion, but I believe a common one.

I think that this basically surmises BreadCultist's arguments. This is why Icy's people are so obsessed with sequels and look down upon experimental games that twist well-known genres.

[John Sandoval]

I love you Mesh.