First of all, I'm 18 years old, but that has fuck all to do with anything. Despite our disagreements, I think you've been a pretty reasonable debate partner so far but if you are going to resort to "hurr, I'm older" then I will lose all respect for you.
Well, first of all, I am impressed by your ability to hold back and at least try to deal with the topic at hand, your adequate writing ability helps too. Regardless, you are young and it shows.
Your paragraph above does not really address my argument at all. I have never claimed that indie games are superior because they "make a point" or "have meaning". In fact I don't think anyone in this thread has claimed that, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you've erroneously attributed someone else's opinion to me.
To the first point, sure, I am sorry if that happened. As for "no one else making this point," this is false. And you didn't say "superior," just that they are two different battlefields of equal validity.
Like you, I judge my games by "immersion and pleasure". But those two criteria, particularly pleasure, are so broad as to be meaningless.
No actually, its not so broad as you imagine, as all the giants of art (not the 21st century ones) would tell you. And its not just enough to give a bit of pleasure, for not all pleasure are created equal, there is intense pleasure (like the one given by looking at Bernini's David) and dull pleasure that manages to keep boredom of for like a second (fashion, or trying to be "in" the social group by praising Picasso). There are differences between the two, and it comes down to your ability to judge which one is superior to the other.
I could get pleasure from the *personality* of Nikujin, or from the cutscenes of Metal Gear Solid, or from rubbing myself off to Passage while thinking about how deep I am. Anyone who enjoys a game for any reason is receiving pleasure from it. You have not made any attempt to demonstrate that mechanical complexity (or whatever other criterion you use to judge games) is the only way to achieve "pleasure and immersion".
Yes, right here, you are still stuck with the schoolboy's mentality as Kael would tell you. Certainly, you could get pleasure from masturbating to passage, a cat gets pleasure from a ball of strings. But all the "depth of playing Passage
" still can't match up to the depth of pleasure I gained from reading Nietzsche (who is also one of the strongest attacker I have had the pleasure of reading). So sure, someone CAN gain pleasure from it, especially if they have been brainwashed enough, but that is why Insomnia writes for intelligent human beings
, not some faggot who loves JRPG and thinks its equal to Chess.
Again, read this: http://www.artrenewal.org/articles/Philosophy/ArtScam/artscam.php
Think about it deeply, the art of creating a pleasurable game (as well as painting) is not such an easy thing, especially when you are dealing with videogame fans who has had decades of experience. In the beginning, it is easy to amuse us, but experience makes us much harsher.http://www.paulrossen.com/paulinekael/trashartandthemovies.html
It's cool that you don't care about the "authorial intent" or *personality* of the game. But I do, a lot! And you still haven't answered the central question in my paragraph that's quoted above: I'm asking you why you believe that your criteria for rating game quality is the ultimate and objective standard by which all games must always be judged.
Because I ultimately found it to be made by talentless creators who couldn't hold my attention. They were like fashion, very easily forgettable and something, which by it's very existence, presupposes that nobody should derive from it. Maybe you will find it as trivial as me, I don't know. But just realize that the amount of experimenting and things deleted to create System Shock 2 (for its not JUST System Shock 2, the things learned from it's predecessors would be necessary to account for it's creation) would put any of these games to shame, if you are not going to read the things that Icy have listed to you.