Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

 
Advanced search

879810 Posts in 33007 Topics- by 24380 Members - Latest Member: hirokoae46

May 25, 2013, 02:03:20 AM
TIGSource ForumsPlayerGamesearth-shattering battle between icycalm and jason rohrer
Pages: 1 ... 271 272 [273] 274 275 ... 302
Print
Author Topic: earth-shattering battle between icycalm and jason rohrer  (Read 206520 times)
Kramlack
Guest
« Reply #4080 on: February 24, 2011, 03:47:11 PM »

Exactly.
Logged
milk
Level 1
*

0


View Profile Email
« Reply #4081 on: February 24, 2011, 03:53:33 PM »

Deep.
Logged
Kramlack
Guest
« Reply #4082 on: February 24, 2011, 03:56:56 PM »

So deep it had to be removed.

Quote from: Jogr
Sometimes the dick is there and sometimes its not. Such is life.
Logged
Fallsburg
Level 10
*****


Fear the CircleCat


View Profile WWW
« Reply #4083 on: February 24, 2011, 04:06:58 PM »

Especially that first one. I'm suspecting that the answer is something like "the extent to which the player can meaningfully impact the game world through his actions," but I'm not completely sure.

I had a bit of time to think about this while stuck in traffic.  Let's take Super Mario Bros. as an example.  Most people would probably agree that it is a simple and fun game (icy would either claim it either is fun or it is simple, but let's ignore that).  

So, how complex is SMB? (I'm going to assume Mario can backtrack for ease of calculations, so pretend this is some rom-hack emulator version or something)
Let's look at the state space of SMB 1-1:

Number of possible inputs: Left, Right, Down, Down+Left,Down+Right,Down+Left+B, Down+Right+B,Down+B, Left+B,Right+B and then all of those again with A, so 21 possible inputs (including the null input).

Given that the NES was 8-bit let's assume that 2 8-bit numbers describe Mario's x and y velocities. This means there are 2^16 possible Mario velocities.

Number of possible positions Mario can occupy (gross simplification): Let's say as a reasonable estimate Mario can occupy the lower third of a level (this ignores things that occupy his path, but he is never constricted on top by things, so this seems reasonable).  This means that Mario can occupy 3324*75 different locations or 249,300 diffferent locations.

If Mario is on a flat surface he can jump.  The jump will be different depending on how long the button is held. Estimate Mario FPS at 30 and maximum jump hold time at 1 second (no idea how correct these are), so 3324*30 (approximately, this ignores gaps and places where Mario could be on a block so I'll call it a wash) or 99720.

There are 55 different blocks that Mario can hit (10 possible hits on the coin-block). So there are 2^55 different combinations of these.

There are 5 powerups Mario can collect. So there are 2^5 different collections of these.

There are 152 different locations you can hit the flag.

There are 300 different times you can hit the flag. (obviously you can't hit the flag at time 300, but we'll ignore that).

There are 15 enemies that can each occupy ~300 different states [position and direction] (this is a gross simplification, but given bouncing and distance until falling off of something it seems reasonable to me). So there are 300^15 different positions of these enemies (overestimation since the enemies only move while on screen). There are 2^15 different possible states of them being dead.

There are 226*75 locations Mario could be if he went into the bonus area and 226*30 different jump locations.

There are 19 coins in the bonus area that Mario could get. There are 2^19 different collections of these coins (might not be possible, I don't know SMB physics that intimately).
So, simple rough estimate at the number of different play states of SMB 1-1 is

21*249300*99720*2^55*2^5*152*300*2^16*2^15*226*75*226*30*2^19*300^15
=
5.0957e94
or ~5.0957e14 times as many Mario 1-1 states as there are protons in the universe

If we don't use the number I am least proud of (300^15) and say that those enemies as a whole can only have 300 possible positions then we get
21*249300*99720*2^55*2^5*152*300*2^16*2^15*226*75*226*30*2^19*300
=
1.0654e60
Comparing that to Chess with ~1e47 possible states, we see that Mario 1-1 is ~1.0654e13 times as complex as Chess!

Take that Kasparov!

I hope this demonstrates how stupid *complexity* is as a measure for games.  This is also heavily caveated by the fact that Mario is much simpler to predict because there isn't an adversarial intelligence fighting you, but really we aren't talking about the game itself if we have to allow for intelligent opponents.

Again, open question to all of the icycalm followers, non-subhumans that you are, prove me wrong.  Tell me why complexity is always better than simplicity when it comes to games. Tell me how you can objectively state the complexity of a game. Or do you want to be defeated by a subhuman, unable to uphold one of the key tenets of Zirbas?
Logged

C.A. Sinner
man of wealth & taste
Global Moderator
Level 10
******


dmloish srs cultru


View Profile WWW
« Reply #4084 on: February 24, 2011, 04:09:55 PM »

IT'S ON

also lol
Logged

mirosurabu
Guest
« Reply #4085 on: February 24, 2011, 04:18:19 PM »

I wonder if anyone ever measured various complexities of notable video games and compared them to those of chess and go.

I'd certainly like to see measures of complexity of bullet hell shmups.
Logged
Gimym TILBERT
Level 10
*****


ILLOGICAL, random guy on internet, do not trust


View Profile Email
« Reply #4086 on: February 24, 2011, 04:18:51 PM »

I don't want to prove anyone wrong but let's dig Picasso a bit:

15 years old


late teen (portrait of his mother)


A bit older and starting to get bored of perfection


even more later


The picasso everybody knows (when he get famous)



OH WAIT! Picasso said great artist steal? (not exactly but it was attribute to him)

WILFREDO LAM a cuban artist inspire by vodoo art





Wilfredo is not as known as picasso, obviously he was the one who start the style, and his painting display much better composition and creativity than picasso's abstraction
Logged

Fallsburg
Level 10
*****


Fear the CircleCat


View Profile WWW
« Reply #4087 on: February 24, 2011, 04:23:55 PM »

I've never seen anything by Wilfredo Lam, thanks for showing me those.
Logged

William Broom
Level 10
*****


formerly chutup


View Profile
« Reply #4088 on: February 24, 2011, 04:27:58 PM »


...

Quote from: Broom
It's cool that you don't care about the "authorial intent" or *personality* of the game. But I do, a lot! And you still haven't answered the central question in my paragraph that's quoted above: I'm asking you why you believe that your criteria for rating game quality is the ultimate and objective standard by which all games must always be judged.
Because I ultimately found it to be made by talentless creators who couldn't hold my attention. They were like fashion, very easily forgettable and something, which by it's very existence, presupposes that nobody should derive from it. Maybe you will find it as trivial as me, I don't know. But just realize that the amount of experimenting and things deleted to create System Shock 2 (for its not JUST System Shock 2, the things learned from it's predecessors would be necessary to account for it's creation) would put any of these games to shame, if you are not going to read the things that Icy have listed to you.
I think we're going round in circles. Most of the things you say here are just variations on "things I don't like are bad" and "people who like the same things as me are intelligent". And some more conspiracy theories about how people don't REALLY enjoy things, they just pretend to because of their "social game". Oh yeah, and you used my age to insult me, just as I knew you would.

By the way, I do think JRPGs are equal to Chess, in some sense. They both have different values which can't be compared. There's nothing in Pokemon that compares to the strategic depth of Chess, but there's nothing in Chess which compares to the joy of your Magikarp evolving into Gyarados.

I suspect that Icycalm's entire project of rating and ranking videogames is pointless. Even among relatively similar games within the same genre, the range of different values is so diverse as to make it impossible to chart on a one-dimensional graph.
Logged

Paul Eres
Level 10
*****


Also known as RinkuHero.

RinkuHero
View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #4089 on: February 24, 2011, 04:44:04 PM »

Fixed. Also watch who you call fag you homophobic asshole. Fun that you revert to hate crime when you run out of logic, loser. Subhuman.

isn't a hate crime when you perform a crime because of motivations of hate? for instance, beating someone up just because you hate them or their group. but simply calling someone hateful names isn't a hate crime.
Logged

Blademasterbobo
Level 10
*****


yes, i'm a duck


View Profile
« Reply #4090 on: February 24, 2011, 04:44:35 PM »

kramlack, you are a stupid cunt.

just felt like throwing this out there.

note that you were not banned, guitar_mobster was, and you both did the same thing.

that's just one of the ways in which you're full of shit.

you whiny, self-righteous, stupid asshole.
Logged

Hand Point Left Hand Shake Left Hand Thumbs Down Left Hand Thumbs Up Left Bro Fist Left Hand Metal Left Toast Left Hand Fork Left Hand Money Left Hand Clap Hand Any Key Noir Hand Joystick Hand Pencil Hand Money Right Hand Knife Right Toast Right Hand Metal Right Bro Fist Right Hand Thumbs Up Right Hand Thumbs Down Right Hand Shake Right Hand Point Right
Kramlack
Guest
« Reply #4091 on: February 24, 2011, 04:48:18 PM »

u mad?
Logged
mirosurabu
Guest
« Reply #4092 on: February 24, 2011, 04:49:01 PM »

You aren't banned either.
Logged
Blademasterbobo
Level 10
*****


yes, i'm a duck


View Profile
« Reply #4093 on: February 24, 2011, 04:49:59 PM »

if anyone in this thread is subhuman, it's you.

feeling anger is infinitely superior to Simply Existing as the excrement known as Kramlack.

miroslav, when you develop even a modicum of reading comprehension, get back to me.
Logged

Hand Point Left Hand Shake Left Hand Thumbs Down Left Hand Thumbs Up Left Bro Fist Left Hand Metal Left Toast Left Hand Fork Left Hand Money Left Hand Clap Hand Any Key Noir Hand Joystick Hand Pencil Hand Money Right Hand Knife Right Toast Right Hand Metal Right Bro Fist Right Hand Thumbs Up Right Hand Thumbs Down Right Hand Shake Right Hand Point Right
Kramlack
Guest
« Reply #4094 on: February 24, 2011, 04:51:20 PM »

if anyone in this thread is subhuman, it's you.

feeling anger is infinitely superior to Simply Existing as the excrement known as Kramlack.

miroslav, when you develop even a modicum of reading comprehension, get back to me.

yeah u mad
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 271 272 [273] 274 275 ... 302
Print
Jump to:  

Theme orange-lt created by panic