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[Eric McQuiggan]

The problem with picking judges is relevancy. How many critics are there that aren't indie game developers themselves? Are a handful of super enthusiastic Bloggers and "Enthusiast Press" enough to judge the 300+ submissions? Its hard to worry too much when the Academy Awards works on a similar system, really.

I agree that you should, under no circumstances, be in a position to boost your own game. But thinking the Indie community is super inbred is incorrect.

Aside, this is kind of why I'm sad people bitched so much about indie game get togethers being on the front page, I always thought they were the best ways to meet developers and make new friends, it showed that community is important. You realize how normal these dudes/dudettes are.

[adev]

When I say critics I just don't mean Tim and Michael, I mean journalists from mainstream video game magazines/sites as well. I'm generalizing so don't take this the wrong way, but I think your reply is endemic of just how inbred the indie game community really is! The general assumption is that somebody has to be inside of the community (I'd argue that Tim and Michael are) to judge what makes a good indie game, while I think that doesn't hold true at all.

Its hard to worry too much when the Academy Awards works on a similar system, really.

... that's a horrible argument!

[Paul Eres]

who is 'adev' btw? what games have you made? you seem to know a lot about the igf for being a first-time poster. or are you just posting anonymously? if so, come on, i criticize the igf openly worse than you do (and have over the last two years said a lot of the stuff you've said), and i don't hide behind anonymity, and nothing bad has happened to me

[adev]

Why does it matter who I am..? I prefer posting anonymously for a bunch of reasons (not that I have another account here at TIGForums) and I don't think that should disqualify anything I say...

[Paul Eres]

oh, i agree that it doesn't disqualify what you say (and i agree with most of what you say). i was just curious about what your reasons are. if you don't want to say who you are, i've no problem with it at all, i was just curious.

[adev]

I'm an indie game dev and I haven't entered anything into the IGF this year.

[Paul Eres]

that's good. i've also tried to criticize the igf only in years in which i did not enter. because i entered this 2011 one (and also 2010 and 2007) i'm withholding most of my criticisms, so as to not exacerbate the problem with igf criticism being characterized as coming from people who didn't win.

[Eric McQuiggan]

... that's a horrible argument!

I don't disagree, that's why I wasn't fully behind it when I said it. I've looked into other awards though, and a jury of peers is how it's decided, more often then not.

My main understanding is the preliminary juding round was handled by people of all stripes within gaming, including mainstream gaming press and developers.

Still, I don't understand why people see an event supporting what some would consider the cream of the crop of indie games and think to themselves, "This is a thing I need to shit on".

[bento_smile]

Congrats to nominees, etc. Lots of well deserved nominations!

Still, I don't understand why people see an event supporting what some would consider the cream of the crop of indie games and think to themselves, "This is a thing I need to shit on".

Because it costs $90 to enter. (The money buys a bit of complaining :3 )

Edit: By this I mean, for some it crushes both their dreams and their wallets.

[RCIX]

it seems to me a really stupid choice to let the juries be dominated by developers who can easily be accused of favoring their friends!

Erm, since when does an accusation actually mean by default that someone actually did the thing they're being accused of?

This of course makes the cultural bias discussed in the other thread even worse ³. I find it ironic that Phil Fish posted a list of previous winners as an argument for the IGF being international/not having much of a bias (and for critics to "fuck off"), failing to note that with one exception (a Czech game), every single IGF award has for the past five years gone to either a dev from an either English-speaking country or a Nordic one.

Is it possible that it just so happens that those are the origins of the best games? Honestly, you're talking about an area that's virtually all bias, so it's kinda hard to reliably say what is fair and unfair.

(Well, I dunno about Minecraft; while it deserves the nominations, I'm still iffy on it having been submitted.)

I dunno, if you're going for "best indie game", and minecraft is a candidate, i don't think it should be booted out on the grounds of "it's too popular". If you want to do a "best unpopular indie game", then make it an actual category

That's not to say that there aren't issues with the IGF (I'm really not sure), but you don't seem to have the strongest arguments.

[Blademasterbobo]

(Well, I dunno about Minecraft; while it deserves the nominations, I'm still iffy on it having been submitted.)

[PaleFox]

Is it possible that it just so happens that those are the origins of the best games?

No. It's not.

[iffi]

This of course makes the cultural bias discussed in the other thread even worse ³. I find it ironic that Phil Fish posted a list of previous winners as an argument for the IGF being international/not having much of a bias (and for critics to "fuck off"), failing to note that with one exception (a Czech game), every single IGF award has for the past five years gone to either a dev from an either English-speaking country or a Nordic one.

Is it possible that it just so happens that those are the origins of the best games? Honestly, you're talking about an area that's virtually all bias, so it's kinda hard to reliably say what is fair and unfair.

Going by a quick skimming of the entries list, I'm under the impression that there are simply more submissions from English-speaking countries than there are from elsewhere, so it's not surprising that most of the winners are also from English-speaking countries. I didn't see, for example, many entries from Japanese developers, even though there are many quality doujin games.

[adev]

Erm, since when does an accusation actually mean by default that someone actually did the thing they're being accused of?

Are you joking? Did you read what I said? Did you somehow miss the entire paragraph that led to the conclusion you quoted?

Is it possible that it just so happens that those are the origins of the best games? Honestly, you're talking about an area that's virtually all bias, so it's kinda hard to reliably say what is fair and unfair.

Yes, it's "virtually all bias". What makes the best games is of course entirely subjective, which is the very reason you'd want judges from varied backgrounds!

[adev]

Going by a quick skimming of the entries list, I'm under the impression that there are simply more submissions from English-speaking countries than there are from elsewhere, so it's not surprising that most of the winners are also from English-speaking countries. I didn't see, for example, many entries from Japanese developers, even though there are many quality doujin games.

This is true! And isn't this a big problem? It really shouldn't be too hard for the IGF to present the submission guidelines in at least Japanese, Chinese, Spanish, French... I have a Japanese friend who basically sweat blood over even understanding how to submit his game.