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[Movius]

I'm going to start my own award; the "True Indie Spirit(tm) Everybody Wins A Prize Award" (TISEWAPA). It costs $100 to enter and there is a big award where every entrant* is presented with a giant self-Esteem boosting trophy and a giant novelty $20 cheque.

*Of course being an award for the True Indie Spirit(tm), if you or someone acting on your behalf can afford the entry fee, you're automatically disqualified.

[Noyb]

could you name some platformers that you consider innovative?

See also:

• Addicsjon - A platform game in which the player character is addicted to the collectibles, and will gladly put himself and others in danger if the player lets up direct control for a second.
• The Mushroom Engine - A "backwards" platform game where you begin at the end of the game, play your way to the beginning. The main challenge is to avoid causing any paradoxes along the way. You have an infinite jump (corresponding to falling), but can only fall a short distance (corresponding to a fixed jump height).
• FallOver - A platformer with a goal of slapstick comedy like Qwop or Sumotori Dreams.
• Pretend You're Platforming - Similar vein to The Mushroom Engine. You have a full 8-directional movement control over your character, but must navigate a platform environment without breaking the illusion that you're playing a platform game overly much.
• Babies Dream of Dead Worlds - The center line of each level is a gravitational attractor.
• Dungeon - Everyone who plays gets one of X different versions of the game, some of which are harder than others if not impossible.
• Tower of Heaven - Innovative more for the narrative construction of making the game rules increasingly arbitrary to get the player to question the entity enforcing them. Difficulty comes from subverting platformer expectations, like the ability to walk left on the ground.
• 1924 - A game in the style of a silent movie, where instead of playing sound effects or dialogue, the game pauses to display a title card with that sound effect written on it.

Also, my own Mr. Destiny's Adventure, although the "trick" doesn't work for all players.

[Paul Eres]

that one actually looks like a good list. i was the first one who reviewed dungeon back on the frontpage when it was first released and was a beta tester for it so yeah i should not have forgotten it, however its innovation could have worked in any genre of game, it wasn't specific to platformers (it wasn't an innovation in platformers). it was an innovation in games in general though.

none of the others on that list i've played, so i'll take a look.

[Fallsburg]

and what about winter voices for instance?
even if you haven't played it, just read this: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010/10/18/wot-i-think-winter-voices-avalanche/

I agree it's an innovative concept, but in the link you provided the author says (and I'm going to paraphrase here) it has interesting (if melodramatic) writing hampered by a battle system that is at best confusing and at worst "the videogame equivalent of watching a fat man climb stairs on his hands and knees."

I feel like you have created the idea in your head that "innovative == good".   You keep knocking down people's suggestions about platformers because they aren't innovative enough.  I never said that a game such as Super Meat Boy was innovative.  I said it took its core gameplay and polished it orders of magnitude beyond the point most games stop at.  I would say the same thing about VVVVVV.  Is flipping gravity a new mechanic? No. Did VVVVVV take gravity flipping and explore the possibility space with it, polishing it wonderfully? Yes.

It's the Independent Games Festival, not the Innovative Games Festival (well, excepting the Nuovo award).  I'd rather see people make good games than innovative ones, you would rather people make innovative games than good ones (not to put words in your mouth [words in your typing?], but that's my interpretation).

That being said, I'm a bit disappointed by Super Crate Box being on there.  I didn't think the game was particularly good or innovative.

[moi]

especially how minecraft got the technical excellence over something like this is beyond me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1IsxDQ5cPg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kksmifosh0w

plenty more examples if you search for overgrowth

meh.

I want that engine

[AndySchatz]

To your original point Paul, it would be disappointing to me too if my game were docked because it was true to a genre that a judge didn't like.  Was it more than one judge?  Or just one?  If it's just one I don't see that it's a systemic problem.

That said, I do think it's ok to dock a game because it hews to the standards of a genre which itself is poorly designed.  For instance, I am perfectly ok with a Farmville-genre game being docked, even if it has an extra innovation or two, simply because I believe that "genre" of game is, at it's base, poorly designed.

[Paul Eres]

@Paul
Sorry to break your bubble but the only way Immortal Defense could score a writing award would be if it was judged by quantity. The game part of the game was really good, but the walls of text in-between levels were just trite melodrama.

i definitely agree that it's easy to be biased but i'm just going by feedback reviews here, not my own personal opinion. i could quote some of the game's reviews

"The brief text sequences between levels carries the story--to fight in "pathspace," you have foregone your body and normal existence, and the concerns of the people who are sworn to defend seem increasingly irrelevant to you, in this very different existence. I typically think this kind of backstory is irrelevant (and often poorly written), but here it's almost haunting--nicely done." - Greg Costikyan in his Game Tunnel review

"I think this was maybe the second game where a specific piece of text haunted me late, after completion. "What can change the nature of a man?" was the first - if you know what game that's from, you'll like Immortal Defense." - Patrick Dugan in Play This Thing

"This is a game that will force you stop. It will force you think about the world around you, your very mortality and the price you would pay to become immortal. It will LIE to you on a level that Portal never would have dared to go. And you know what the worst part is? You will KNOW it’s lying to you. You will know it is all a lie but you will not want to believe it. Even as it becomes clearer and clearer – even as the inevitable comes right into your sight and starts to strangle your very mind, you will refuse to believe it." - The Angry Pixel

"Two things put the story head and shoulders above a lot of other SF-themed games. First, it's the epic scope, a galactic story that spans time and space. Second, the direction of the plot. This is not headed where you think it is. Oh no. [...] The story is told through passages of text between each level and, like Braid, it seems almost independent to the game itself. However, coincidentally both titles at certain points tell the story through the gameplay, and to startling effect. This is quite rare in my experience. [...] The only problem is that, like Planescape: Torment, Immortal Defense has raised the bar. This of course is a good thing, but I can’t help feeling spoilt, like I won’t appreciate anything less." -Electron Dance

"One of the funny things about plots in video games is that the medium, in its current form, tends to lend itself to certain stories. Fantasy and science fiction aside, the average video game always has to incorporate obstacles, conflict, and struggle within the narrative. That’s true of most stories, but in video games these elements are particularly palpable because generally, the player’s function is interacting with those problems. Yet rarely do stories ever address the conflict itself, probably for the same reasons actors don’t look directly into the camera. That’s the means of connection with the video game world and to acknowledge it would be to break that bond. But the indie game Immortal Defense has managed to create a powerful story that marches right up to that element and forces the player to question everything about it. The end product is a tower defense game with one of the best stories I’ve ever experienced." -Popmatters.com

"Immortal Defense takes a simple, oversaturated genre and elevates it to another level entirely. The existentialist storyline is not only compelling and thoughtful, but it's probably the best explanation for "turret defense" gameplay I've seen yet" - Derek Yu's review in Game Tunnel

"Another selling point is the compelling story: which other tower defense game has kept you awake till 3AM?" [...] "As far as making a purchase goes, I can say that the writing and narrative design here is among the best I've seen in a long time in any indie game, much less a tower defense game. "I love you grandpa" is a piece of text that haunted me, leaving me shaken with wonder and existential horror, for hours after I finished the game." - Jay is Games

"In short, Immortal Defense is what all the other tower defense games wish they could be: smart, elegant, and chock-full of delicious strategic offerings. It manages to be both fun and artsy at the same time, a feat which few games pull off. We also guarantee that the story will astonish, as it is quite possibly one of the best stories in gaming." -Bigdownload.com

now of course game journalists don't knows know what good stories are either, so here are some of the fan emails and user reviews the game has gotten too

"Without hesitation I'm giving this game a 5, which is not to say that it's perfect, the graphics may put some off, though myself I never really cared much about those, and a few of the more esoteric "towers" can behave in a different manner than a player could expect, but the story is downright amazing. I've found myself replaying certain parts of the game a couple of times even weeks after I've completed it just so I could re-experience certain dialogue again." -user review on GameZebo

"The only game that I can think of that comes close to connecting your actions to the story so well is that last level on Braid and by comparison I think that takes certain liberties with what came before (like flipping Tim)." - Gregg B in a blog comment

"Everything is explained and integrated with the storyline down to the cursor itself. It is hard to say enough about this game. You will not be disappointed if you're a fan of good writing or TD style games." - an Amazon.com user review

"Yea, I loved this game, especially for the story. The twist in the first episode is one you've seen a hundred times before, but there are at least two more big twists coming, one of which is a jaw-dropper." - comment in Jay is Games

"The plot is ecstatically engaging and emotional, one that you’ll invest in tremendously. What does it mean to become immortal? To become a god, or an avenging demon? How does it feel to defend your planet, and the daughter you left forever on its surface? There’s no way I’ll spoil it for you, but the narrative takes you through dramatic twists, highs and lows, and will really engage you with its high sci-fi nature." -user review on MobyGames

"Jason Rohrer once wrote something to the effect that for a game to be considered good, gameplay should be relevant to the story in more ways than just moving it forward.  While it's counterproductive to compare the quality of writing and while it's remarkable how Chris Avellone et al. managed to weasel out of TSR's license restrictions and introduce a number of innovations, Immortal Defense is objectively a better game [than Planescape Torment] (there, I've said it, now I have to eat my hat) because every gameplay element of ID is important for the story down to the shape of the path, the availability of points (A Broken Circuit, anyone?) and even the weather effects." - Starmaker in the game's forums

"First of all thanks for creating this great game, rinku. I've had an awesome time playing it (sometimes even until 2-3 am). Yesterday evening I've finished it, and I still feel somehow strange. The ending brought really controversial and creepy feelings and thoughts in my brain, and as I was riding the bus today listening to the game's soundtrack and watching the rain on the streets... man, I just can't explain how I felt. Congratulations on making a game that makes you think and feel about the world a bit differently." - a post in the game's forums

"Immortal Defense is only a game, but it touches many quite serious subjects - like protecting the family, barrier between gratitude and worship, limits of responsibility, loneliness, memory and love. Actually the game seems like a stylish metaphor of human life, gameplay aside." - Thomas Grochowiak

"You have truly broken ground with Immortal Defense, taking both the tower defense genre and the art of storytelling in games in bold and innovative new directions. I look forward to one day seeing your name amongst the great game designers whose work we shall be enjoying for generations. Truly, I cannot describe what a delight it was to see millions of years unfold through the perspective of an unspeaking protagonist who slowly but surely became ever more insane. Thank you for the trip, and may there be many more just as innovative and wonderous." -fan email

""I can't deal with how beautiful this game is. I can't. It defeats me. I have been holding off completing the last campaign for weeks now because I don't want it to end. The gameplay, narrative and soundtrack work together so flawlessly it boggles my mind. Never stop, any of you."" -fan email

about 90% of every review and user/fan comment of the game i've seen has mentioned that their main reason for liking the game was the story. so i don't think that saying immortal defense was known for its story is that big of a stretch, considering the above (and this is just a tiny percent of what's out there, i didn't want to flood the page with quotes, but it could fill ten times this easily, this is just for illustration).

i should also note its tv tropes page -- i don't know how much that says, it might just have a lot of fans into the story, but i've never seen so many people go into so much depth about how the story works for an indie game before: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ImmortalDefense

i totally and definitely agree that programmers sometimes overvalue their stories. but i didn't write the story, the writer did (john thornton), and the writer isn't a programmer, he's a professional writer, so it's the programmer overvaluing his writer's story if anything

but basically it would take more than you've written to "burst my bubble" considering the above quotes and all the similar ones i didn't quote, biomechanic

[AndySchatz]

For the record Paul, I liked Immortal Defense quite a bit, I bought it, and I enjoyed the odd story as well as the gameplay.  I also thought it was innovative.

[Paul Eres]

sorry for the double post but your question was posted as i was writing the last post

To your original point Paul, it would be disappointing to me too if my game were docked because it was true to a genre that a judge didn't like.  Was it more than one judge?  Or just one?  If it's just one I don't see that it's a systemic problem.

you'd have to ask laura shigihara; i only remember the one user review she described or quoted from last year. whether there were more or not i don't remember. if it's available to you (since you're a judge i think?) you can go check out the 2010 feedback for the game melolune and see what it was like yourself.

edit to avoid another double post:

"For the record Paul, I liked Immortal Defense quite a bit, I bought it, and I enjoyed the odd story as well as the gameplay.  I also thought it was innovative."

thanks, much appreciated. a lot of my bias against the IGF probably comes from the fact that i submitted immortal defense in 2007, and not only wasn't it a finalist (which is fine), but it also didn't even get any feedback at all (it was one of only two games that year out of all the games submitted to get absolutely no feedback). the feedback in 2010 for saturated dreamers was good though. but i heard that feedback wasn't required this year in 2011 so that there may be less of it again?

[AndySchatz]

Feedback was not required this year, which I think is a good thing.  This is something I've been saying for years, which is contrary to the masses of complaints from a few loud entrants: it's a competition, not a forum for feedback.  You can get that a lot cheaper than 95 dollars or whatever the entry fee is.  And the amount of *volunteer* work that the judges put in is massive.  It's better that the judges spend time playing the games rather than sending feedback.  The feedback is also unfortunately just an opportunity for people that weren't selected to cry "its not fair!"

That said, I have no idea how much feedback was given on any particular game.  Judges dont have access to that.  I also don't have access to any raw data, or feedback from previous years.

[Paul Eres]

i'm not sure i like that, mainly because a) even though it's not worth 95$ feedback is often like a consolation prize: something you at least get if you aren't a finalist, so it doesn't make people feel as if the money was entirely wasted, and b) feedback helps people improve the game so that when they submit it next year they'll know what the judges were looking for and why they didn't like their game, it improves indie games overall. a lot of people can't get impartial feedback any other way (playtesters on forums usually know the person so it's less imprtial).

i think the feeling of unfairness is far higher if you don't get feedback than if you do, because if you get feedback you at least have some idea why the judges didn't like your game, if you don't you have no idea.

[AndySchatz]

It doesn't sound like there have been a lot of cries of "unfair!" this year simply because the finalists are a really well rounded, well respected lot.

As for the entry fee, the IGF operates at a loss.  The entry fee is partially there to cover those costs.  It's also there (I think) to try to keep people that don't actually think they can win from entering.  The competition is already buckling under the 400 entries (plus student entries).

It's kind of like a marathon.  You pay to enter the marathon.  The feedback is whether you won or lost.  You don't expect your entry fee to cover a trainer sitting at the finish line telling you how you should have trained differently.  That's just the nature of a competition like this one.

BUT... to have some sympathy for your point: it's quite possible that Immortal Defense deserved to be nominated in its year.  The IGF just used to be a little more random, and that's one thing they have tried to address with the juries this year.  While Saturated Dreamers wasnt part of my compulsury set of games, I did play it for a bit as part of my jury duties.  If you aren't satisfied with the feedback you got, please feel free to msg me and I'll give you my feedback (of the 20 minutes or so I played).

[Paul Eres]

kk, thanks. but as mentioned earlier, it's a 30 hour long game, so the players often don't get into it in the first 20 minutes (which i think hurts its chances in contests like this). the first 20 minutes are just teaching the player to play the game and introducing them to the world and to the movement system etc., the real game doesn't begin until an hour or two in (like with aquaria). but i'd like your feedback on how to improve those 20 minutes / first impression, yes. will message you.

[AndySchatz]

kk, thanks. but as mentioned earlier, it's a 30 hour long game, so the players often don't get into it in the first 20 minutes (which i think hurts its chances in contests like this). the first 20 minutes are just teaching the player to play the game and introducing them to the world and to the movement system etc., the real game doesn't begin until an hour or two in (like with aquaria). but i'd like your feedback on how to improve those 20 minutes / first impression, yes. will message you.

To be clear, it wasn't one of my compulsory games, so in addition to those 15, I looked at about 30 games between my grand prize and design selections.  I spent much more time with some of the games.  It's not that I thought SD was in any sense a bad game, just that in those categories it hadn't gotten enough endorsements for me to warrant spending additional time with it, but I wanted to check it out because I always loved Immortal Defense (so there was actually bias in your favor in this case).  I quite like the direction you are going with it, and I like the art.  I'll give you more feedback privately.

EDIT: In the case of Recettear, I hadn't played it and had been told that you really need to spend a lot of time with it to "get it".  In this case, it had gotten a lot of endorsements, so I tried to spend a lot of time with it in order to form my opinion.  I did the same with Minecraft since until my judging duties I had really only played it for about 20 minutes or so.

Edit #2: Also keep in mind that it could be a blessing in disguise.  Games that are finalists one year are rarely selected in following years (miekagure is the only one I know of).  So if the game is done next year, it might actually stand a better chance of winning an award.

[Paul Eres]

btw, is there anything this year in the new system that says a judge has to play the game they're assigned to play? i ask because i received an email from one of the judges (one of the guys at molleindustria) who said he couldn't open the zip: i re-uploaded the game and asked if the new zip worked, and he never replied. i'd hate to think he just didn't play the game because he couldn't open the zip or something.