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[Paul Eres]

the 'minecraft is a fluke' thing may be true, but it's not the first indie game to sell more than 1m copies: bejeweled and snood are others. it's just the first non-casual indie game to sell more than 1m copies (in the 21st century anyway, if we exclude early "indie" games like doom).

it's true that you don't see 1m+ copy-selling indie games every year, but you do see 100k+ copy-selling indie games every year (and several of them). so we could objectively say that the *consistent* market for indie games, over the years, is at least several hundreds of thousands of people, which isn't too bad at all.

but is 'minecraft was a fluke' really your only counter-argument to everything i just said? so you do not disagree that a indie game market is measured in its absolute size, not in what the average iphone game makes? and you don't disagree that what the average makes says very little (if anything) about what someone individually will make? and that you lose nothing in asking for funding anyway, so there's no reason not to do it? because those things, if you agree to them or have no answer to them, seem to cleanly refute your earlier posts.

[Christian Knudsen]

Also, since there's a finite cash reserve, these games (SMB, Minecraft etc) actually drain the pool of money available for smaller projects.

You're assuming that finite cash reserve has been exhausted. I don't think that's the case. I think more quality indie games will cause more money to be spent on them.

I've also experienced quite a bit of hostility here, frankly extreme rudeness.

Because you were posting in threads where people were simply trying to create awareness for their games on 8 Bit Funding and not commenting on the games, but on how you found the concept of 8 Bit Funding to be repulsive. It's kinda like if someone else started harping on those developers for using a specific programming language. That's not what those threads were for and you were polluting them. I'm glad you're posting in the correct thread now, since I don't think you're completely off the mark in some of your views on 8 Bit Funding.

Turns out that some of the most hostile posts have been from people who actually have products currently seeking funding.

Yes, because you were polluting the threads on their products! And, honestly, a lot of the people responding in an annoyed manner to you do not have projects on 8 Bit Funding.

Clue for the immature kids: my opinion here has very little bearing on whether platformer #474846 or roguelike #293746 succeeds or not.

Calling them immature kids is not a smart move if you're really looking for an honest and good-natured discussion on this.

Another inauspicious fact: for a lot of these products, you're getting into a space where you're competing with free software, some of which is produced to a surprisingly high standard of production values.  How they are able to do that I really have no idea but they do.

Perhaps they live in a richer country and can save up money? Perhaps they're fortunate to have a well-paying job? Perhaps they've managed to save up a great deal of money? Perhaps they've inherited a fortune? Perhaps they've won the lottery?

People have different financial situations. Just because some people are able to make quality indie games for free doesn't mean that's possible for all people.

---

Anyway, I feel one of the biggest things that could hold back 8 Bit Funding is the "developers paying developers" aspect of it. There has to be some motivation for people that are only gamers to visit such a site. I'd bet 99% of the people currently visiting it are developers themselves.

[Paul Eres]

for the record, most of the people who funded my saturated dreamers project on kickstarter were not indie game developers, but fans who had bought my previous games. there were a few indie game developers who did contribute too, though. i think this sort of thing works best when you have an established fan base.

[valis]

Calling them immature kids is not a smart move if you're really looking for an honest and good-natured discussion on this.

No.  Calling me an "asshole" and a "massive dickhole?"  Now that was not a smart move.

Got a problem with my expression of my opinion on this subject?

Tough.

I don't think you're completely off the mark in some of your views on 8 Bit Funding.

That was easy.

[Christian Knudsen]

for the record, most of the people who funded my saturated dreamers project on kickstarter were not indie game developers, but fans who had bought my previous games. there were a few indie game developers who did contribute too, though. i think this sort of thing works best when you have an established fan base.

But if you already have an established fan base ready to support you, do you really need Kickstarter or 8 Bit Funding? Couldn't you set up a donation drive yourself on your own website? Shouldn't sites like Kickstarter and 8 Bit Funding mostly be for projects that don't have an existing fan base to draw from -- i.e. one site that will draw in a large crowd of people willing to support various projects? Otherwise all it seems to be is a payment processor and a template for creating a webpage for your project.

I kinda feel that 8 Bit Funding would perhaps work even better if it had more to offer to non-developers that just games in development. What if you could also play flash games there or download finished games. Whenever you play a game, you could then be presented with the current project from the developer, asking if you'd like to donate or preorder. Sort of a "If you liked this game, why not support this new one we're working on?". Or developers could recommend other projects in development that don't yet have finished games to show?

I don't know. Currently it just feels too much like a collection of separate project webpages. The community aspect and interplay between projects just seems to be missing.

[valis]

Question: how would it be handled if some developer collects, say, 10 grand, then dies?  Or, say, decides not to make the game after all and to keep the money?  And just disappears, or keeps saying "It'll be done next week?"

Who is financially liable?  I'm not a lawyer but this sounds like it might represent a potential legal problem for the parent organization.

[Christian Knudsen]

It's entirely between the contributor and the project owner.

http://www.8bitfunding.com/static.php?static_id=1

[Paul Eres]

i doubt there would be a legal problem over someone losing 20$ for paying for a pre-order for a game that never gets made, the lawyer fees would be more than the entire funding amount anyway

also let the record show that valis keeps looking for ways to attack the idea of funding indie games (e.g. legal issues) and talking about how rude everyone is being towards him rather than replying to rebuttals to his points

[valis]

also let the record show that valis keeps looking for ways to attack the idea of funding indie games (e.g. legal issues)

Paul, I'm just asking questions here.  Is that OK with you?

I've been involved with VC on both sides, on the funding side since around 2003.  I am talking about large sums of money, in one case a huge sum.  One thing VC people do is to ask a lot of questions.  One of the reasons they do this is to gauge the attitudes of the people involved.

Personally I always did this before I got involved with a project rather than during.

and talking about how rude everyone is being towards him rather than replying to rebuttals to his points

I thought we were just having a friendly exchange of ideas here-- I wasn't aware this was a formal debate.  Do you have your briefcase full of index cards?

Also, why are you so insecure about this?  You seem to really take it personally...

[peanutbuttershoes]

You are one man (I'm assuming you're a man, sorry if I was wrong) expressing his opinion to a crowd that mostly doesn't agree with you.
It's just mob psychology that we would say you don't belong. You were mildly offensive, the crowd was mildly defensive.

If we really want to just have a "friendly exchange of ideas", act friendly. (this rule is for everyone, I'm not pointing anybody out.)
If we are currently incapable of at least that, I'm pretty sure we'll all be going in circles here.

My two cents. Sorry. I'll... Just... Yeah. Fade into the background now.  

[tametick]

But if you already have an established fan base ready to support you, do you really need Kickstarter or 8 Bit Funding? Couldn't you set up a donation drive yourself on your own website?

It depends on the scale.

Notch probably doesn't need 8bf, and neither does Derek Yu.

On the other hand, I have a few people who have played previous games of mine and pledged to Cardinal Quest & helped build up some momentum, and I don't think I would have gotten as much money if I just set up a page on my website.

[tametick]

also let the record show that valis keeps looking for ways to attack the idea of funding indie games (e.g. legal issues)

Paul, I'm just asking questions here.  Is that OK with you?

You are not just asking questions, you have decided you do not like the idea beforehand and are fishing for reasons to support that decision.

Also:

8bf is only a week and a bit old and there are already at least 2 games which will get funded for sure (you need to pass 50% to get any of the money), Cardinal Quest & Expedition.

That is not bad at all for such a young site.

[Christian Knudsen]

On the other hand, I have a few people who have played previous games of mine and pledged to Cardinal Quest & helped build up some momentum, and I don't think I would have gotten as much money if I just set up a page on my website.

That's probably true. Do you have any thoughts as to why? Is it because having your project on 8 Bit Funding adds legitimacy to it? Or is it just easier for contributors to, well, contribute, on 8 Bit Funding than for example through a PayPal donate button on your own site?

Not really related, but one of the ways I'd love to see 8 Bit Funding grow is by focusing more on the development process of the projects than simply getting a one-time fund. My own personal ideal version of something like this would be a combination of 8 Bit Funding, the DevLog forums here on TIGSource, and Flattr. Instead of project pages being a static introduction of said project, they would be a devlog or diary. People would follow these devlogs, post comments, discuss them, offer ideas. And if someone really likes a recent update or where a project is heading, they can hit a "Support" button that works like Flattr, i.e. the user has set a fixed amount of money to throw around every month, and this amount will be divided up between the projects he's clicked to support that month. I personally love to follow the development of games (and so does gamers, it would seem, just look at Wolfire) and it'd be great to have a site that was a collection of development blogs with a one-click way to support the projects. There'd of course still be the need for one-time funding drives for the projects needing that.

[tametick]

On the other hand, I have a few people who have played previous games of mine and pledged to Cardinal Quest & helped build up some momentum, and I don't think I would have gotten as much money if I just set up a page on my website.

That's probably true. Do you have any thoughts as to why? Is it because having your project on 8 Bit Funding adds legitimacy to it? Or is it just easier for contributors to, well, contribute, on 8 Bit Funding than for example through a PayPal donate button on your own site?

I think being on 8bf got it more attention - pretty sure the fans were only the catalyst, I think that once people saw that it starts gaining traction they felt more confident pitching in.

This is the first time I am trying to make a commercial game, so it was for the most part an experiment.

Maybe I'll try doing it by myself on my site for the next game and see what happens.

[valis]

You are not just asking questions, you have decided you do not like the idea beforehand and are fishing for reasons to support that decision.

What you're doing is saying that the moon is made of green cheese.  It isn't.  I win.

See how easy it is when instead of addressing what people actually think, we can just say what they think and address the words that we put into their mouths?

As far as the legal issue goes I was really just curious.  That is a problem that Kickstarter and other such VC matchmaking arrangements have had.  It's just something to keep in mind.  Not that someone welching out of a project is likely to happen at this stage of the game but sooner or later it will.