Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

 
Advanced search

879874 Posts in 33010 Topics- by 24383 Members - Latest Member: celloe

May 25, 2013, 06:53:06 AM
TIGSource ForumsPlayerGamesDragon Age 2: A game designer's review (small spoilers)
Pages: [1] 2
Print
Author Topic: Dragon Age 2: A game designer's review (small spoilers)  (Read 4919 times)
Core Xii
Level 10
*****


the resident dissident

corexii@gmail.com Core+Xii
View Profile WWW Email
« on: March 10, 2011, 11:51:04 PM »

Before I go into this I want to point out that there are fundamentally two ways to play Dragon Age; A 3rd person RPG, playing mostly as yourself and relying on custom tactics for your companions, and tactical RPG where you command your whole party as a unit. However, neither game provides the necessary interface for the latter style of play.

Dragon Age plays in real-time with the ability to pause anytime and lacking display for non-controlled party members' talent cool-downs. The interface is simply not designed for controlling everyone at once. You only control one guy at a time and can't tell what talents the others have available while doing so. For a tactical RPG, a different combat system is required, one where characters take turns selecting actions. So that when an ability becomes available, the game pauses for you and lets you decide. Dragon Age does not, leaving you constantly pausing, switching between characters checking their talent cool-downs. It's just inherently designed for controlling a single character.

Therefore, this review is from the point of view of role-playing the main character with tactics setup for your companions, only issuing orders to others than yourself in exceptional circumstances.

And now I'm simply going to list everything bad about Dragon Age: Origins that they didn't address in Dragon Age 2 and everything good about Dragon Age: Origins that they "addressed" in Dragon Age 2. First how it was in Origins, then how I'd have fixed it, and finally how BioWare did.



Speed of combat was a tad on the slow side in Origins. Especially swords of the sword and shield variety as well as two-handers took forever to swing (with awkward animations to boot).

Core Xii: Combat could've used a 10% speed-up with a little more interesting animations.

BioWare: Combat was sped up 300% in DA2 with completely over-the-top animations of characters flying through the air, swinging two-ton swords like they were made of paper. Forget realism, the combat animations in Dragon Age 2 are implausible even for a fantasy universe. The first time you see it it's kind of cool and you thank god for speeding up the combat, but it gets old real fast. There's so much super-speed stuff going on at any given time you can't tell what the hell is going on.

A related issue is that your characters run around really fast. You can kite every single boss by running around in circles, pausing to do a ranged attack whenever you gain ground (as the boss gets briefly stuck in the level geometry, being 10 times your size). It's the worst boss design I have ever seen, ever. A dragon chases you for 10 minutes while being slowly peashot its health down. (sorry for the spoiler, but I'd assume you'd figure that there are dragons in Dragon Age)



Talent cool-downs didn't reset when a battle ended in Origins, leaving you standing around like a lemon waiting for a 60-second cool-down to reset before heading to the next battle, god forbid you wanted to use one of the more powerful spells each encounter. This is inconsistent, because health and mana/stamina did (albeit with simply increased regeneration).

Core Xii: Talent cool-downs should reset or at least cycle with increased speed like health and mana/stamina after a battle.

BioWare: They made health and mana/stamina reset even faster after battle in DA2 (good), but talents still slowly cycle their full cool-downs. Certain talents have as much as 120 seconds of cool-down, so if you used one at the end of the last battle and intend to use that spell in the next, you have to stand around doing nothing for 2 minutes. My god, who play-tested this thing?



Talent trees in Origins were linear and restrictive. Strictly speaking, they weren't trees at all. If you wanted the 4th fire spell, you had to get all 3 before it, whether you considered them useful or (most often) not.

Core Xii: This is a fairly big and fundamental issue. Some spells are more powerful than others and BioWare wanted to restrict your access to them in a progressive manner. But this is the wrong solution to the wrong problem. The problem is not "how to restrict powerful spells to balance the progression" but rather "how to balance the spells in the first place".

My solution would be to not have better spells, just different ones. A large area-of-effect (hereforth referred to as AoE) spell doesn't need to be game-breakingly powerful even if you get it at level 1. You simply make the spells scale by level, such that it does X × level damage with a radius of Y × level as opposed to flat amounts.

BioWare: We were promised a remedy with DA2's actual trees. Curiously, these "trees" are as restrictive as ever. Each spell not only has a level and previous talent(s) requirement but also demand an arbitrary amount of talent points already spent in the tree. This is no more flexible than Origins, sometimes it feels even less so. It's blatantly obvious with some spells having talent requirements that physically cannot be fulfilled before their level requirements (a hypothetical spell requires level 3 and 2 points in the tree. But you cannot have those 2 points before level 4 because other talents are restricted to level 4).

For example, the second ice spell (Cone of Cold) requires not only the first ice spell (Winter's Grasp) and you to be level 8, it also requires you to take two other talents from the same tree for no reason (Fireball and then one other, possible Winter's Grasp's upgrade which also requires Fireball before it).

It gets even worse with upgrades. At least in Origins, even if we had to get 3 other fire spells before Inferno and be level 5 (it requires 34 magic which is attainable at level 5 at the earliest) at least we got it in its full form. In DA2, the equivalent upgrade to Firestorm requires you to be level 9, have Fireball, one other point in the tree and of course the spell itself, another talent point. That is in no way less restrictive than Origins.

A minor interface issue relating to the talent trees is that you can't see the upgrades until you zoom into the tree. So to see if you have upgrades available to your talents you have to check each tree one at a time. The hell?

Here's the mage spell trees BioWare made for Dragon Age 2:



The requirements aren't laid out in a simple hierarchy but have stuff like "Requires: 3 points in Elemental" (that's including its prerequisites, making it even less intuitive and visual).

And here's how I would have laid out the mage spell trees. Now they're actual trees with options; No level or point restrictions or upgrades. The entropy tree requires you to take every spell before the last... but by its description it's really powerful, so I'm not too worried about that (and it combines effects from all the other spells).





Stat transparency was problematic in Origins. The choice of +1 in one stat or another was oblique at times. At worst, you didn't know mana and stamina were used interchangeably in item descriptions as they were listed separately, or that +1 spellpower was strictly inferior to +1 magic because each point in magic grants one point of spellpower. Items also often listed stats multiple times, like a staff that had Spellpower: 7 and +1 spellpower. Item sets granted bonuses you couldn't see or look up.

Core Xii: This is mostly a documentation slash interface issue. Whenever the player is expected to make a decision, he should be able to access the relevant information. The choice between one item or another should be perfectly clear and enumerated, as it's a fairly big part of the game. Fortunately, otherwise Origins was simple enough. +1% magic resistance meant you had a 1% greater chance of resisting a spell. Simple...

BioWare: ...so then why Dragon Age 2 would be even more oblique is beyond me. What does +1 magic resistance do? The hell if I know, because it's not very well indicated. Stats have the weirdest, most contrived formulas for deriving their final values which is not at all transparent to the player. They added a display for what your attributes do, then somehow put another layer on top of it as oblique as before, only making it worse.

Information is scarce and all over the place. +1 strength gives +1 attack to a warrior which translates to a few percentage increase in their chance to hit, which you can clearly see on the attributes screen. But if you find an item with +26 attack, you've no way of seeing how many % it translates to. Even worse is that +1 in something often has diminishing values; +1 armor is huge at level 1, but completely insignificant at 20. In Origins, +1% magic resistance was +1% magic resistance, regardless of level, and hence easier to understand.

Which brings me to...



Attributes. Origins had a bad case of uselessness in some attributes, like willpower, because simply leveling up granted you some and item bonuses provided enough to offset the balance. It was annoying, but in a harmless way; You just didn't put any points there. Gear had an attribute requirement, such as strength for swords, but thankfully no item required willpower.

Furthermore, the extremely gradual progression makes the choice difficult. Should I put 1 point into magic this level when it has a 0.01% effect? But if I don't, will I be gimped later and then have to retroactively dump points into that stat three consecutive level-ups? The investment of points seems so insignificant but if you don't, you'll invisibly gimp yourself until it's too late to do anything about it, since your points are long gone to another stat and you only get 3 on the next level-up.

Core Xii: I don't think the whole attribute system works, at all, really. If your character knows a talent, its success shouldn't be tied to a stat you have to raise independently. Indeed, they half fixed that in DA2, by making talent success independent of attributes (I still have no idea how +1 magic resistance factors into this). Sadly, damage is still largely tied to stats.

You should be able to choose talents to suit different tactical situations, and their effect should be tied to your level, if at all (since both you and enemies level up...). Such a system would be fundamentally tangent to this flavor of RPG, though.

BioWare: Not only did they make willpower not useless, they made it mandatory. Every item has two stat requirements now; Every mage robe requires equal amounts of magic and willpower. Bye, choice. Similarly warrior gear takes strength and constitution and rogue gear dexterity and cunning. They might as well just combine each pair into a single value, because you'll never get to raise one without the other. Gone is the choice of dexterity rogue vs cunning rogue. Gone is the choice of DPS warrior vs tank warrior. The three classes are set in stone now and there's no diversity. Warriors tank, rogues DPS and mages CC (crowd control). Some people call it streamlining. I call it stupid.

The most annoying part is that willpower is still useless even when it's forced to not be. Each point gives you +5 mana/stamina, but sustained talents reserve a percentage now rather than a flat value. So if you have 50% of your mana reserved in sustainables, +1 willpower translates to only +2.5 mana. If 100% of your mana is reserved, like a good blood mage should, willpower has zero effect. Yet, blood mages are forced to get as much willpower as magic in order to wear clothes. This system boggles my mind. Did they deliberately try to make the game less fun, or what? Speaking of robes...



You can't see what you're buying. In a game with full character customization and role-playing, you're shopping for pure stats. You can't see that the mage hat you bought for half your gold looks ridiculous as hell until you already have. So either you hate it and the developers for the rest of the game or you always quick save before shopping. Actually, this isn't limited to shops; You also don't know what gear looks like until you can wear it. So investing points into a stat to wear something which turns out to be crap can be discouraging - Though rarely fatal, since gear usually requires your primary attribute which you dump anyway (exception: cunning rogues).

Core Xii: Simple, obvious fix: A preview. An image of the item on the shop menu and inventory. Is that too much to ask? Or maybe they could've designed some headware that didn't make you look like a retarded bird.

BioWare: Nope.



Gameplay and narrative. Aren't these supposed to go together to provide the best experience? Not just tell a story independent of gameplay, but tie them together? Well, Origins doesn't. Progressing on your quest, you'll hear a million billion "blood magic is evil", "oh no blood magic" comments. Yet, you can be a blood mage and use it under their very noses and mysteriously nobody seems to notice. It gets even more perplexing when you're a blood mage and want to sympathize with other blood mages. Except you can't. Somehow, the writers decided blood magic is evil and the gameplay designers decided you can be one, without talking to each other, because your dialogue options are always that blood magic is evil, even when you're a bloody blood mage yourself.

Core Xii: Er, make people react. Let me use blood magic in dialogue to influence people. Have my companions notice I'm a freaking blood mage as they complain how evil it is. Give me the option of not killing blood mages whenever I encounter them.

BioWare: On the last hour out of thirty you can side with blood mages for the finale. Up to that point, every blood mage you come across is automatically evil, an enemy you've no choice not to kill. Well, except one of your companions. Again, nobody minds about that or the fact that you're an apostate blood mage (if you chose so). You go around doing side-quests of disposing blood mages without the option of sparing them. It's jarring. Clearly the writers are not talking to the designers at all.



The dialogue wasn't voiced in Origins. You got a number of lines of dialogue to choose from that read exactly what you were going to say. The choices were fairly varied and interesting, although the other characters didn't always respond in an interesting manner (they saved a lot of work by making more than one line invoke the same response, at the cost of some quality).

Core Xii: The lack of a voice is excusable. It would be prohibitively expensive to record all the different lines, in two genders, possibly in human, elf and dwarf voices. It might be preferable to separate what you're saying and how you're saying it, but again the voiced responses limit the number of possible options for the sheer amount of work required.

BioWare: Ah yes, the Mass Effect dialogue wheel. It's still not working. To be exact, the problem isn't with the wheel itself; It's just a shape of a menu. The problem stems from the incredibly vague, generic, voiced responses. The line on the wheel is nothing like the dialogue your character will spout upon selecting it. The wheel can say "No." and that can lead to "I'm so sorry, but I have to follow my heart" or "Ha ha, I'm not interested in your problems, peasant!". Technically both decline, but in rather different manners. Nothing breaks immersion like opening your mouth and having something completely different than you intended coming out. It's like Hawke is schizophrenic and you're the other half trying to nudge him into behaving in a certain way, rather than directly assuming the role of the character.

Having a voiced main character exaggerates this issue even further as we can have even fewer responses than before. So you get to pick from the paragon, neutral or renegade response. Or in DA2's case, the sincere, sarcastic or aggressive response. This is not role-playing.



Level design is good in Origins. You visit nobles in cities, soldiers in castles, mages in towers, elves in forests, dwarves in their underground deep roads, and demons in the fade. A number of locations, each large and unique. Between traveling from one place to the next, any of a number of random encounters can occur, providing even more variety. My only complaint is for all the walking. They should've just let you fast-travel from anywhere, at any time, because you can just hike your way back and back again, with the same effect, just incredible tedium.

BioWare: Here's one city, one beach and one cave, each of which you'll be visiting a minimum of 12 times. I am not kidding. There is one cave in the whole game with different quests in it, pretending it's a different one each time; They have impassable doors that are (seemingly) randomly closed, making you take slightly different routes. These closed passages aren't even reflected on the minimap! Ok, the deep roads were very long and samey in Origins, but my god, at least each samey tunnel was unique. DA2 has one cave. The same one. For fifty different quests. With slightly randomized placements of (copious amounts of) corpses and chests for loot. In a consistent fashion, there's also one beach, one mine (that doubles as a sewer when required) and one mansion, each passed off as a "different" location on each quest. The only unique place in the entirety of the game (of any significant length) is the deep roads which you visit briefly.

It's... I don't even know what to say. If you don't have the resources to model locations then you should look into procedurally generating them. Having one static cave you visit fifty times is... I don't even...
« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 04:25:36 AM by Core Xii » Logged
Core Xii
Level 10
*****


the resident dissident

corexii@gmail.com Core+Xii
View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2011, 11:51:55 PM »

Epicness is right there in Origins. It's a massive quest to unite Ferelden against the darkspawn, ultimately defeating the archdemon - and you always have that looming main quest in sight, apart from the short origin prologue up to becoming a gray warden. There's intermediate quests and it all breaks down nicely - Defeat archdemon, unite Ferelden, gather allies, and each ally has a smaller quest for you to resolve.

BioWare: Dragon Age 2 is not epic. Right off the bat, you have no goal, no ultimate objective to aim for. You're Hawke, your home was destroyed and you're poor. The "story" follows the day-to-day adventures of doing side-quests for gold and (largely) invisible influence. There's some politics brewing but the actual plot itself comes into play on the last hour out of 30, again. There's no world, it's just the city of Kirkwall and its immediate surroundings (consisting of the one cave), and even those do not change in any way over the "10 years" the game is supposed to take place over. It's not falling apart, there's no big scenario. Well, not until the last hour, anyway. Until then it's dicking about. And even when the story turns interesting it ends before it begins, predictably setting the premise for the 3rd game. DA2 is like a long, pointless prologue to how epic events set in motion, as opposed to Origins where you were in the middle of them.



Loot, specifically useless items. Rather than finding gold directly, loot consists of different useless items you can only sell. Oh look, blank vellums. Private documents. Trade manifests. Each one takes a slot in your inventory, and each one is as useless as the next, only to be offloaded to the next merchant as soon as possible. And this selling of junk is tedius. You have to double-click each separate item and then choose what quantity of the useless things you wish to sell. How about all of them?

Core Xii: You should simply find gold. It's less realistic, but a hell of a lot more convenient. Or at least condense all of the garbage to a single "loot" item that can be sold at once.

BioWare: They made it possible to sell all useless crap at once, at least. But all the useless crap still take an inventory slot a piece, and now they don't even have images in the inventory, so all we have is the item's name stating it's a "spider fang" or whatever. And no, spider fangs don't stack with werewolf fangs. Gold isn't used anywhere else but shops (it was in Origins) so why do we have to have this junk system? We need a merchant to sell and buy anyway, so why can't you just find gold as loot and do away with the awful garbage?



Enemies in Origins were quite interesting and varied. Sure, the same type of enemy was used repeatedly such as darkspawn, walking corpses, etc. but every fight still managed to be different somehow. Maybe there was a lieutenant or elite with them, different mixes of enemies and repeated encounters were broken up by surprises, like a pack of mabari between groups of walking corpses, out of the blue, but appreciably varied. Different enemies also had special moves like giant spiders overpowering you or templars smiting your mage to the ground.

BioWare: Dragon Age 2 is very scarce when it comes to enemy variety. You'll fight generic warriors and archers 99% of the time, wave after wave. In fact, reinforcements materialize out of thin air before your very eyes at least thrice every battle. Some of them are made out of paper dying in two hits, some have stupid amounts of health, but they all bog down to auto-attacking you until either party dies. None have any special attacks. They just gang up on the party member that "draws" the most "threat", a stupid arbitrary mechanic I hoped they'd upgrade to actual zones of control for warriors and tactical battlefield manipulation spells for mages (such as Dungeons & Dragons has been refining for 4 editions now (I have a feeling BioWare designers don't actually play other games and end up repeating mistakes others have already solved)). But no; It's a clusterfuck and several waves of generic enemies are invited.

Very, very rarely you'll meet a more interesting enemy, like a mage that actually casts spells other than teleport or shield. Yes, most mages you face just auto-attack, cast an impervious but temporary shield and teleport elsewhere when attacked. Or maybe the way too fast combat and all the over-the-top blood and fire particle effects just distracted me from noticing them doing anything else, because you can't see a damn thing.

Bosses are special, of course. Sadly, for every boss you fight a million billion generic mobs.



Meaningful choices are better suited for a more open game. Origins is a largely linear story with no choice of not becoming a gray warden or doing anything else than you were destined for, really. There are some "moral choices" along the way but they are completely inconsequential, usually in the form of someone dying or not, but they actually play no role thereafter, hence carrying little weight. Unless it was a companion; Then I guess you'd care personally, but even then, it does little to influence the greater events.

Core Xii: It's a direct issue of work. In order to have a truly open and consequential game world, a lot has to be taken into account, again adding to voiced dialogue. But games of the past have managed fine without voice, and frankly I'd rather have an RPG where my decisions carry weight, than a fully voiced, "cinematic" adventure where I'm railroaded into things.

Even voiced, Fallout 3 gives you the option of erasing an entire town off the map. A whole town, full of voiced NPCs with quests and stuff! Sadly it's downhill railroad from there but at least they tried.

BioWare: Dragon Age 2 is a 29 hours of inconsequential side-quests before the final act where your choices have no effect that I could tell. I started a second play-through and so far making different choices from my first made no difference. The dreaded dialogue wheel can have all the "no" and "yes" options in the world, but somehow the NPC you're talking to always manages to railroad you. In other words, there's three different ways to say "yes" on the damn thing.

On one side-quest you hunt down someone (I'm purposefully vague for spoilers). When you catch them, you have the option of killing them or letting them go. If you let them go, they appear later to do something specific. But if you killed them, someone else appears later to do the exact same thing. So your choice had no impact on future events whatsoever.



Runes spiced up Origins a little bit; You could add small bonuses of your own selection to weapons to spruce up their stats. That is... if you realized runes weren't permanent, as I didn't on my first play-through. They didn't say you could remove a rune once applied, so I assumed you couldn't, and ignored the entire mechanic for an obvious reason: If you wasted a rune on a weapon and then found a better one around the corner, it would have been lost. So I ended up stockpiling runes waiting for the "best" weapon - But that's pointless, as it'll be the last one you find and consequently the one you have fun with the least. When I discovered this wasn't the case, they added a bit of flexibility to equipment.

BioWare: So then Dragon Age 2 makes runes permanent. Well, at least this time it's not due to lack of documentation that I'm ignoring the whole mechanic. Seriously, an RPG is about finding nicer gear in every chest. Who decided runes should be lost when you switch? I found a bad-ass +30% attack speed rune but couldn't use it because had I found a better weapon, it would've been lost. (actually, I just put it on Varric's crossbow, the only character whose weapon you can't switch - and it kicked ass, too bad I couldn't have as much fun as Varric)



The AI sucks. That is to say, the 'tactics menu' is the wrong solution to the right problem; If you don't want to try to control the whole party at once with the awful interface, you have to let the game control the rest for you. Except, it doesn't. You have to use the very crude tactics system setting up pairs of conditions and actions. But there's only one condition per action, so you can't be very specific. You can't cast a certain spell on the enemy mage with the most health, for example; You can pick either to target the nearest enemy mage or the enemy with the most health, but not both. The tactics include a 'jump' instruction but the slots are far too few for that, being tied to the tactics skill on each character.

There's also a general 'behavior' setting you can set on e.g. 'aggressive' or 'cautious', but each type of role (melee or ranged, really) pretty much call for a specific setting ('aggressive' and 'ranged', respectively).

Core Xii: They should've just wrote proper AI so that your companions can use their talents smart. Why they delegated this task to the player is beyond me - it should be the programmers' job to make combatants behave intelligently in the game. As mentioned in the beginning, if they wanted you to play the whole party they should have designed the entire combat system differently altogether.

BioWare: Skills were removed and you gain tactics slots by leveling up. Other than that, no improvement. In fact, the system seems clumsier. I set the party rogue to use the evasion talent when attacked in melee, but he didn't when set to 'ranged' behavior, preferring instead to simply walk a couple steps back each time. The tactics menu itself is more difficult to use and downright buggy at times. It feels a little sticky and unresponsive like the rest of the interface.



This deserves special mention. In Dragon Age 2, there's a combat mechanic such that when a character is hit with a physical attack, they can be knocked back. It goes something like, if the damage is greater than 10% of your health plus your fortitude (from the strength attribute) then you get knocked back. Mages and rogues don't put points into strength, therefore they have no fortitude. They also can't invest heavily enough into constitution to have any amount of respectable health.

As a consequence, a powerful enough attack always knocks a mage or rogue back. The result? Complete stun-lock until death. If a dragon comes and melees your mage with no way of drawing it away with the retarded threat system (yeah, let's taunt the dragon to appear more threatening!), you're dead. It'll knock you back continuously with no way of breaking free until you die. This is especially noticeable on difficulties above normal.



I won't nitpick on the UI; Origins is very pretty, DA2 is "streamlined" (ugly but functional). A matter of taste, personally I liked Origins a lot better.



This review vividly demonstrates BioWare's inability to game design. Their writing may be above average but the gameplay department is in a different cupboard on a different continent. Is Dragon Age 2 worth playing? ...Yes, once, if you don't have better new games to play. Possibly a second time in a few years with all the DLC. Is it worth buying? No. I don't know what BioWare thinks they're doing. The quality of their games has been sinking since they were acquired by EA. Final verdict: Pirate, don't support the developer.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 04:27:38 AM by Core Xii » Logged
Core Xii
Level 10
*****


the resident dissident

corexii@gmail.com Core+Xii
View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2011, 11:53:38 PM »

reserved
Logged
allen
Level 10
*****



View Profile WWW
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2011, 12:34:48 AM »

That's disappointing, I really enjoyed Origins..despite the many flaws it did have. I was hoping Dragon Age 2 would be an improvement, but after playing the demo I decided I was going to wait for a sale late in the year. But after reading this and the whole dont talk shit about bioware thing means I am definitely passing on this.
Logged
William Broom
Level 10
*****


formerly chutup


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2011, 01:17:41 AM »

Though I haven't played either of them I enjoyed reading this review, good stuff!
Logged

TeeGee
Level 10
*****


Huh?

tomek_grochowiak@op.pl
View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2011, 01:29:23 AM »

I'm surprised people criticize DA2 so much. Not that I disagree with what's been said here or elsewhere on the internet, but the original Dragon Age was pretty shitty imho, and everybody seemed to love it.
It was a very ugly, generic and repetitive game of going to places, and getting an excuse to go through a long and boring dungeons. Granted, it was the only AAA nerdy high fantasy RPG at that time, and it had some merits, but not really a great game.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2011, 01:47:57 AM by TeeGee » Logged

Tom Grochowiak
MoaCubeBlog | Twitter | Facebook
C.A. Sinner
man of wealth & taste
Global Moderator
Level 10
******


dmloish srs cultru


View Profile WWW
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2011, 03:23:20 AM »

it was the only AAA nerdy high fantasy RPG at that time, and it had some merits, but not really a great game.
I think that's the thing. Some people (including me) were hungry for something the "tradition" of Baldur's Gate instead of watered-down faux-RPGs like Mass Effect. Dragon Age has its flaws, but I personally think it's the first good Bioware game since Knights of the Old Republic.

Looks like they turned DA2 into Mass Effect: Fantasy Version anyway though, which was to be expected. DA:O was too PC-centric in its interface design and not simple enough for the Xbawks crowd. Oh well...
Logged

TeeGee
Level 10
*****


Huh?

tomek_grochowiak@op.pl
View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2011, 03:38:28 AM »

That's the reason why I bought it too. I had some nerdy fun, but ultimately felt disappointed with the generic story, repetitive dungeon crawling, bad graphics and awful character designs. I was surprised with all the hype, perfect reviews and "RPG of the Year" awards it got. It just wasn't that good.

DA2 isn't that much worse, imho. Most of what's bad in it, was bad in Origins as well. I would even say it improved in few aspects. Origins has 91% and 8,3 user score on Metacritic. The sequel has 83% and a whooping 3,7 from users! 3.7?! What happened? Is there really such a huge difference between the two? That's what confuses me.

Also, "not simple enough for for xbawks crowd" comment makes me want to slap you in the face just a tiny bit Wink.
Logged

Tom Grochowiak
MoaCubeBlog | Twitter | Facebook
Toom
Level 3
***


You have to tell me if you're a cop.


View Profile WWW
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2011, 05:27:37 AM »

it was the only AAA nerdy high fantasy RPG at that time, and it had some merits, but not really a great game.
I think that's the thing. Some people (including me) were hungry for something the "tradition" of Baldur's Gate instead of watered-down faux-RPGs like Mass Effect. Dragon Age has its flaws, but I personally think it's the first good Bioware game since Knights of the Old Republic.

Looks like they turned DA2 into Mass Effect: Fantasy Version anyway though, which was to be expected. DA:O was too PC-centric in its interface design and not simple enough for the Xbawks crowd. Oh well...

Ha ha yeah man all console gamers are dribbling simpletons because not everyone can be fucked pawing through two dozen spreadsheets to get anything done amirite. Are we seriously still doing this? Isn't it 2011 now?

Here's the difference between DA:O on the XBox and the PC, alright? The interface has been redesigned for a different input method - and a damn good go at it they've had, too - and they botched the graphics engine so it was harder to be distracted from what a giant, buggy, awkward turd the game actually is, albeit a turd wrapped in a really compelling story. Both Mass Effect titles shit effortlessly down its throat in my opinion.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2011, 05:51:48 AM by Toom » Logged

I'm gonna beat yer ass wit dis moon tree!
Gimym TILBERT
Level 10
*****


ILLOGICAL, random guy on internet, do not trust


View Profile Email
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2011, 05:40:57 AM »

Great insightful post can't wait for the next part Smiley

Thanks!
Logged

TeeGee
Level 10
*****


Huh?

tomek_grochowiak@op.pl
View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2011, 06:21:33 AM »

Toom, I don't think C.A. Sinclair was being entirely serious Wink.
Logged

Tom Grochowiak
MoaCubeBlog | Twitter | Facebook
Mipe
Level 10
*****


Migrating to imagination.


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2011, 06:35:22 AM »

And yet it is an enjoyable game.
Logged
Toom
Level 3
***


You have to tell me if you're a cop.


View Profile WWW
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2011, 06:46:01 AM »

My point still stands! DA is a mess, but the control method of the XBox version is the least of its faults; the biggest problems with it are absolutely cross-platform (shittily-designed dungeons, ballache-inducing menu structure, bugs out the wazoo (my favourite is when quest completion flags spontaneously fail or revert after you've poured fifteen hours into its pitiless maw, leaving you no choice but to restart - or to sell the wretched thing and play any other game)). That, and this "watered-down faux-RPG" thing. What, it's not a real RPG if it's not an enormous fucking hassle? I admire the hell out of BioWare's approach to ME2 especially, where they've worked out what's fun about the genre (engaging stories, character progression, customising the appearance and playstyle of your avatar etc.) and stripped back the bits that aren't (two dozen inventory panes that are mostly for categorising your massive stacks of ubiquitous vendor trash), then applying the Fun parts to a traditionally faster-paced genre and seeing what falls out. Going into DA:O or Mass Effect looking for Baldur's Gate is akin to playing Deus Ex because you liked PnP Shadowrun so much.
Logged

I'm gonna beat yer ass wit dis moon tree!
Gimym TILBERT
Level 10
*****


ILLOGICAL, random guy on internet, do not trust


View Profile Email
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2011, 06:54:05 AM »

What's the competitor? You can afford to be bad if your the top of the existing experience!

Aside from bioware and bethesda I don't see anyone else, and they are both terrible at interface and game structure.
Logged

C.A. Sinner
man of wealth & taste
Global Moderator
Level 10
******


dmloish srs cultru


View Profile WWW
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2011, 07:35:55 AM »

OK, I feel I have a little clearing up to do. By the "Xbawks crowd", I didn't mean console gamers, hell I'm an Xbox 360 (and PS3 and Wii) owner myself. What I meant was younger gamers whose introduction to gaming were shooters on current-gen consoles and who aren't used to relatively slow-paced games that aren't easy to pick up and play.

By "PC-centric interface", I meant that the game was designed to be played with a mouse-and-keyboard setup and therefore is probably (I admit I haven't played the console version) harder to control with a gamepad. That's just the way certain games are designed, just like, for instance, God of War would probably be harder to control with a keyboard. I'm not claiming the superiority of one control method over the other here.
Logged

Pages: [1] 2
Print
Jump to:  

Theme orange-lt created by panic