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[Kramlack]

I come from school, and see this thread.

You say that like it's a bad thing, but phuban's clearly posted a gif of a guy licking a rabbit, soooooo I don't know how anyone could hate it.

[14113]

I come from school, and see this thread.

You say that like it's a bad thing, but phuban's clearly posted a gif of a guy licking a rabbit, soooooo I don't know how anyone could hate it.

It was that gif that got this thread blocked at my school 

[Toom]

hay guiz wats hapnin in this thraed

[Paul Eres]

So all the sources you've given me refer to it being used mostly against women in the us. im in the uk, it's a totally different ball game here (cricket btw)

yeah but you used it mostly against women in the US (such as eva, you called her one probably half a dozen times)

Holy shit, you really have absolutely no sense of humour do you?

neither do you, judging from your signature (what i said as a joke you took seriously)

but that's besides the point. regardless of whether something is a joke or not, it can be offensive if not interpreted as a joke. which is why it's best to avoid saying things publicly which could be seen as offensive by somebody who doesn't understand the humorous context, even if they're jokes.

this is also my advice to phubans, btw, that i gave him years ago (he's still failed to take it, because he doesn't understand that forums are public places, not private conversations, and that potentially thousands of people are reading what he says: probably a larger audience than any stage any of us has been on in real life).

literally, imagine you were standing in front of 5000 people and saying these things. that's functionally equivalent. in real life most people would have stage fright and be terrified of saying anything that they'd be judged adversely by. on the internet that fear is less, even though the audience size is even greater, and the consequences just as great. public forums are *not* the place to make crude jokes that you'd make with your friends.

[C.A. Sinner]

Not just that, but "fag" has basically become a suffix that has the same meaning as "er," "ist," or "an," as in someone who does something or comes from a place (artist = artfag, canadian = canadafag, etc.)

The word "artfag" is older than 4chan though.

[Nitromatic]

I come from school, and see this thread.

You say that like it's a bad thing, but phuban's clearly posted a gif of a guy licking a rabbit, soooooo I don't know how anyone could hate it.

I was foolish by not noticing it. Please, go on with the thread.

[DjangoDurango]

Hi. I am female.

Re: Cunt

The word is used to marginalize women. Being called a cunt, as a woman, is basically being told that you are only worth as much as your genitalia. If you've only ever heard it used against men, it's because it's meant to be an even deeper dig at their masculinity. Similarly to being called a fag, it implies that one is less "manly", like homosexuals supposedly are. And lacking manliness is bad, regardless of your gender. For all the soul-foody, new-agey, Oprahtastic rejoicing over femininity, fact is that it is still largely seen as a disadvantage to be feminine (as a woman or a man) and valued less than masculinity in the real world.

Re: Women in male-oriented fields and vice versa

The reason few people take issue with the lack of men in female-oriented jobs is because female jobs are seen as inappropriate for men. It's not manly to work in a daycare or to stay at home with the kids or to be a nurse. These are thought to be "easy" jobs men shouldn't waste their time on. Conversely, technical jobs are thought of as "too hard" for women. This may not be your personal opinion and I think most people, men and women, would disagree with the notion these days. Regardless, like was said earlier, when people perceive jobs to be socially inappropriate for them, they are less likely to be interested in or apply for them. These notions, however much we recognize them to be social constructs and not actually true, are still subconsciously prevalent and will continue to be until a larger effort towards the elimination of gender roles is made.

While women suffer more from the pressures to conform to gender roles by virtue of the fewer opportunities that are even available to them, men do as well as it means they are less likely to pursue interests or activities they may be suited for, for fear of being seen as less masculine. For instance, men who would genuinely prefer to be stay-at-home dads continuing to work because that's what society says you should do. Or, less seriously, my dad who, as a kid, liked to do latch hooking but stopped when his brothers told him that was for girls.

In short, gender roles are shitty for everyone.

Re: Women and Videogames

I think whoever proposed that the gap between the genders in game dev is related to women playing games as children is also correct. At least in that it feeds into several issues that contribute to it. I played them as a child, but that was not common among girls then. Videogames, as far as I know, have always been seen as a male pastime and, in fact, the only reason I played them was because my dad did. This is anecdotal evidence, but I wouldn't figure that it's terribly uncommon that girls my age were more likely introduced to videogames through male friends and family as opposed to being interested on their own. Given that girls are largely not perceived to be interested in them, though, it also makes sense that even in households where a girl has male influences and gaming consoles, either she would've rejected the idea of playing or the males in the scenario would've assumed she would and didn't bother to try and share.

Nowadays, there are many more avenues for girls to become interested in videogames, even discounting casual and social gaming, so I am hopeful there will be more women in game dev in the coming years. Enough that there won't even be a point in making a distinction of someone being a Woman in Games because it won't be novel.

[14113]

So all the sources you've given me refer to it being used mostly against women in the us. im in the uk, it's a totally different ball game here (cricket btw)

yeah but you used it mostly against women in the US (such as eva, you called her one probably half a dozen times)

And? I had no idea that she was a woman, I just assume everyone on the internet is some sort of genderless automaton, like a robot. In fact, I dont believe any of you really exist, and the internet is simply a highly advanced ai, which is designed to give a semblance of human interaction. As someone said eairler, intent is an important thing in conversation. In my culture, cunt is just a generic noun, which has no real gender affiliations, and which is used against men and women equally. The f word however, very specifically, is a derogatory term for a homosexual male, hence the difference.

Regardless of all that, I've stopped using the word as an insult, as I can see that it has caused offense to a number of people (although in your case, i feel it may be artificial, to simply win an argument). This is something which i never saw eva doing. Even after I explained that I find it EXTREMELY offensive, she carried on regardless, and you started trying to trick me into justifying it on her part.

Holy shit, you really have absolutely no sense of humour do you?

neither do you, judging from your signature (what i said as a joke you took seriously)

More proof that you have no sense of humour, I put it in my sig as a joke.

but that's besides the point. regardless of whether something is a joke or not, it can be offensive if not interpreted as a joke. which is why it's best to avoid saying things publicly which could be seen as offensive by somebody who doesn't understand the humorous context, even if they're jokes.

this is also my advice to phubans, btw, that i gave him years ago (he's still failed to take it, because he doesn't understand that forums are public places, not private conversations, and that potentially thousands of people are reading what he says: probably a larger audience than any stage any of us has been on in real life).

Unlike everything else you've said, ever, I agree with this. This is why I get pretty pissed off at some of my friends when they start up their racist banter between each other (one is Chinese, the other is black), when we're walking around in public. Between us, we know its all a joke, and there is no racist intent behind it, regardless of how bad the insults get, when we're in public however, the game is changed, as any passer-by could hear what they're saying and take it completely literally.

literally, imagine you were standing in front of 5000 people and saying these things. that's functionally equivalent. in real life most people would have stage fright and be terrified of saying anything that they'd be judged adversely by. on the internet that fear is less, even though the audience size is even greater, and the consequences just as great.

I'd be perfectly happy to go up on stage and call someone a cunt to their face. However, I'd never call anybody the f word, or the n word. As I explained before, they have a totally different emphasis, one is generic, and the other is specific.

But anyway, where has cunt been used to marginalise women? Provide me with evidence and I'll accept your argument, so far, you've said nothing to convince me that cunt has been used to marginalise women.

This seemed a bit indicative to me:

It's actually considered one of the most offensive swear words, above even faggot, nigger, or fuck, according to some BBC poll.

?

The bbc uses the word cunt regularly in their broadcasts, however they NEVER use the f word, nor the n word.

EDIT:
Actually, watch the thick of it, or in the loop, both massive swear fests, which use the word cunt multiple times per minute, yet strangely never use the f word, or the n word...

[Paul Eres]

The reason few people take issue with the lack of men in female-oriented jobs is because female jobs are seen as inappropriate for men. It's not manly to work in a daycare or to stay at home with the kids or to be a nurse. These are thought to be "easy" jobs men shouldn't waste their time on. Conversely, technical jobs are thought of as "too hard" for women. This may not be your personal opinion and I think most people, men and women, would disagree with the notion these days. Regardless, like was said earlier, when people perceive jobs to be socially inappropriate for them, they are less likely to be interested in or apply for them. These notions, however much we recognize them to be social constructs and not actually true, are still subconsciously prevalent and will continue to be until a larger effort towards the elimination of gender roles is made.

this is an interesting point, although i think that being a nurse is more difficult or at least as difficult as being an game programmer (particularly an indie game programmer), and i'm not sure popular opinion would disagree with this. the difficulties of being an elementary school teacher (also female dominated, although not as much so as it was in the past) are also common knowledge. but i do think that what you said is generally true of the perception of most male- and female- dominated professions

but i do think that sometimes one gender is better at a particular type of work than the other, and that we'll never get near 50-50 in every field. for a simple example, males are generally bigger, and hence better at construction work and other work which involves a lot of physical effort. similarly, women usually have more practice taking care of children than men do (because they raise children more), so it makes sense that day care workers are mostly female.

but i also agree that there are some fields (such as car mechanic) which are male-dominated but there's no clear reason why they should be that way, other than peripheral things, like more males having a fascination with cars than females. i think game programming is of that type, because if programming really were a particularly male skill, male programmers would tend to be better than female programmers (which isn't the case, among professionals rather than amateurs i mean).

also, another thing is that females tend to actively look down on videogames more than males do. so i don't think it's necessarily true that game programmer is seen as this difficult, prestigious job, at least among females. so i wouldn't entirely blame inexposure to videogames for the lack of female game developers, i think that in addition to that the attitudes of many females towards the activity of playing videogames plays a big part. if they didn't see it as a waste of time or look down on people who play videogames, they might have more opportunity to find games they like, and there might be more female game developers.

[Paul Eres]

And? I had no idea that she was a woman, I just assume everyone on the internet is some sort of genderless automaton, like a robot.

this would be true if you also called males that word. but i haven't seen you apply it to anyone *but* females

there's also the issue that you called her "she" rather than "he" or "it", so i don't think it's true that you had no idea she was female

[C.A. Sinner]

Also, Didn't you argue that using "faggot" is homophobic even if not used to insult a homosexual? Wouldn't that also mean your use of the word "cunt" was misogynistic regardless of Eva's gender`?

[14113]

And? I had no idea that she was a woman, I just assume everyone on the internet is some sort of genderless automaton, like a robot.

this would be true if you also called males that word. but i haven't seen you apply it to anyone *but* females

there's also the issue that you called her "she" rather than "he" or "it", so i don't think it's true that you had no idea she was female

Notice I only started calling her she after someone mentioned that she was a transsexual female, before that I (tried) to avoid any gender specific referrals.

As for her being the only person, she's the only person on the forums that I've ever got angry enough at to use the word, you've brought me close at times, but it's possible to actually hold a reasonable debate with you, which has stayed my hand.

Also, Didn't you argue that using "faggot" is homophobic even if not used to insult a homosexual? Wouldn't that also mean your use of the word "cunt" was misogynistic regardless of Eva's gender`?

An excellent point, however one I've addressed many, many times.

Eva used the f word as a very specific insult, she (beyond all reasonable doubt) knew the meaning behind it, and much of its use throughout history. Knowing this, she wilfully decided to use it as an insult, knowing the implications in both directions of her doing this (discussed already).

I however, used the word cunt in a general manner. As I discussed, in my culture it is used to refer to EVERYBODY, male of female. It carries no gender oriented specifics, except for the obvious, the it is the female genitalia. The way I see it, that's the same as calling someone a dick, but with more impact.

I appreciate that eva could argue (oh wait, she cant) that the used the f word as a reference to bundles of sticks, and I would accept that, and absolve her of any homophobia. Regardless, the use of the word (to someone without knowledge of the intent) it is still very offensive.

Since paul helpfully pointed out how offensive he find the use of the word cunt, I haven't used it as an insult, even against eva. I accept that taken without the cultural background it looks more offensive, but then again, the hypothetical eva situation looks very culturally offensive as well.

[Cow]

I appreciate that eva could argue (oh wait, she cant) that the used the f word as a reference to bundles of sticks, and I would accept that, and absolve her of any homophobia.

No she's obviously using it with the modern meaning that you keep continually shutting your eyes to/avoiding which has a completely separate meaning without any homophobic connotation.

[14113]

I appreciate that eva could argue (oh wait, she cant) that the used the f word as a reference to bundles of sticks, and I would accept that, and absolve her of any homophobia.

No she's obviously using it with the modern meaning that you keep continually shutting your eyes to/avoiding which has a completely separate meaning without any homophobic connotation.

There is no modern meaning, I have no idea what the hell you're talking about. I provided a shitload of dictionary references, can you not read?

[Dragonmaw]

I refuse to believe that any human being can be as thick as you are, 14113. You have to be kidding.