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[Graham.]

Well, I read into it that the reduced control in the air in Mario "might be okay." Not that momentum itself might be okay.

JSnake, what did you mean?

I think there is a missed opportunity in Mario games by limiting how much you can maneuver once you are in the air. You can do a little positioning work. In fact, the range of expression in the air was the number one thing I loved about the game, when I got my first copy of Super Mario World at age 6. But that element could have been pushed even further. Metroid is even worse. As Baconman said, momentum forces more nuanced prediction. It doesn't increase the depth of control as much as it could.

They probably knew air momentum was awesome but didn't hammer it home because it would have made the game too easy. Then they'd have to be more creative in their enemy design. I think that's the point.

[Sharkoss]

I cannot possibly entertain the idea that he meant that the difficulty - or any difficulty - comes from the presence of air control in Super Metroid.  The game just gives you lots of control.  It makes navigating complex enviroments and hazards easier.
Anyway, it's pretty clear it was designed that way due to the verticality of the game and the fact that it involves shooting and getting shot at, sometimes in a pretty frantic way.  Can you imagine Contra or Metal Slug without absolute mid-air jump control? Yuck.  Sure, those games don't have momentum (for good reason) but Super Metroid does (for good reasons).  Samus is a space ninja, it suits the (unusual) mix of a shooter/platformer/speedrun-focused-exploration game immaculately and a wizard did it.
In any case, I humbly await correction and/or clarification.

[Graham.]

Hunh? No, the difficulty comes from the air control being impotent. More control, more.

There exists a theoretical Super Metroid that gives the player more control in the air. But that is too hard to design for. So to increase the difficulty the designers reduced that control to be what it actually was. They may or may not have ever considered this theoretical SM, but it could have existed, and would have been even better. Hence the discussion.

Air control is the best part. We need more of it. We don't have it because it makes level design too complicated. So there's a gap to fill. I care a lot about air maneuvering and momentum in my designs too.

[Sharkoss]

Ok, now I'm really lost.  Samus can turn on a dime in mid-air as many times as you like (until you hit the ground).  The arc is generous by the standards of the genre.  What game gives you more, and more immediate, air control than Super Metroid (without actually allowing flight)?  You mean like Major Havoc/Quest of Ki where the mid-air adjustments are more gradual/momentum-y?  Or like Esper Bouken Tai?  Because those are like the only games I can think of that top it.  Pretty absurd claim to suggest that anything that doesn't offer that much control is somehow 'horrible'.  For having to do so much - more than those games ask of you - Super Metroid is pretty damn good.

[Graham.]

I don't know. It would take a lot of thinking.

For example, you can't adjust height mid-jump. Your left-right maneuvering is chunky. Most of your air control actually occurs on the ground, when you position the jump. You always jump in the same arc. There's only two kinds of jumps: spinning and not. There's only one kind of landing. You always fall at the same speed. The atmosphere and environment doesn't affect jumping, except water. You can use the chain link (I forget what it's called) only in special circumstances. The running jump that increases jump height is a special move. You need a lot of room to pick up speed. Things like that.

There's a lot more stuff you could come up with I'm sure. JSnake, weigh in. I've thought about Mario enhancements before, but not SM. Though I've noticed its clunkyness before.

In Mario I want more momentum controls mid-jump, sort-of like I'm flying a ship. I also wouldn't mind setting up new ground maneuvers. Maybe I can get into a position which opens into a roll more easily, or another one that produces more downward force for attack, or another one that allows faster bouncing back up on the landing. I also want to get into vertical wall runs more easily. The wall jump is an obvious add-on, but they don't do it justice in the newer games. There could be a kind of float. The cape is amazing. It's super powerful, but if they took a limited set of its properties and gave it to Mario all the time - awesome. It could be activated situationally based on what he's doing. Maybe you need to get fancy to unlock it.

Wind currents would be cool. There isn't a mid-air double jump. You can't control fall speed - you can in Smash Bros. etc etc.

edit:

Yes, the listed games are very good. I think the criticizing is more about, "how can we make these better," than devaluing them.

[Sharkoss]

Esper Bouken Tai has really wonderful air controls.

I think the criticizing is more about, "how can we make these better," than devaluing them.

Tell that to J-Snake, that's not a lesson I need to learn.

[Graham.]

I'll give that game a try on your recommendation.

Yes, JSnake uses strong language. Just filter it.

[GhostBomb]

IMO, saying that the player should always have as much control as possible is a very flawed way of thinking.  Momentum based platforming lends itself to a certain type of gameplay.  Imagine if Mario had no friction or momentum and you could stop and turn full speed in the other direction at any time.  It would absolutely ruin the game.  Moving around wouldn't be inherently fun any more because there's no flow.  Having complete control lends itself more to twitchy games like Super Smash Brothers and Super Crate Box.

[Graham.]

Well we're not talking about complete control. We're talking about more ways to influence the character's movement.

For example, in fighting games I have many options at any given moment. And each moment is defined in a slightly different way. There are tons of combinations of these two things. Throw in a competitor with a mind of his own and you have a deep game.

We're talking about increasing the control we could have over Mario, but in a way that still makes the game challenging. Fighters aren't easy because they give the player so many options. They become harder that way, because there is more room for the opponent to create his challenge for you.

Imagine chess with only a pawn and a king. Boring, right? Now imagine it with 6 more pawns, and a rook. A lot more interesting. Then add in all the pieces. At each stage the player is given more options, but the game gets harder. In the case of Mario the difficulty would have to be managed with good level/enemy design. Which is the reason why it was avoided.

What if the rook moved just like a queen? So you have 3 queens. That gives the player even more control, but of the wrong kind. You don't want that. We're not suggesting that. That's bad design. You want to give the player more control, but of the right kind. You certainly can't give them whatever you want. You have to think about it.

The challenge of this design is definitely a big one, but it is possible to overcome. I'd like to play a richer Mario, a Smash Bros platformer, but with the feel of Mario. It just takes design.

Think about this. If Mario's jumping is like 3 pawns and a bishop, how do we add everything else?

[GhostBomb]

words

Alright, you win.  You sound like you know what you're talking about.  It just get uneasy when people suggest how to "fix" Mario though you seem to want to do it more responsibly.

BACK ON TOPIC
SO... I think one of my favorite metroidvanias is An Untitled story.  I think it really nailed the nonlinear progression and sense of freedom.

[Graham.]

Thanks.

I try to improve all the great games that I know about, at least in my head. The more fundamental the change the better.

[vinheim3]

I always thought different jumping physics is what made different platformers fun. Having to master each new one is like mastering a new game, I mean you wouldn't really just want to play the same game over and over right? For example, Super Meat Boy and La Mulana have very different platforming physics to most platformers what with SMB's floaty, frictiony controls and La Mulana's fixed jumping or falling off a ledge physics, and there's no real problem with either.

On topic, but 1000 Amps is a fun little metroidvania on Steam with a cool gimmick, and Poacher is a large, quite challenging metroidvania similar to Gun Girl 2. Also, here's a list of downloadable metroidvanias I've collected the past few months that I think are excellent:

Desunoya Nitroid
An Untitled Story
Bunny Must Die
Crystal Towers 2
Eternal Daughter
Gun Girl 2
Hydra Castle Labyrinth
Knytt series
La Mulana
Lyle in Cube Sector
Treasure Adventure Game
You Have to Win the Game
Iji
Hero Core
1000 Amps
Poacher
Aquaria

[Graham.]

There's problems in every game. You just have to look for them.

That's quite the list.

No you would not want to play the same game over and over. Developing a unique feel for your title is a very important step. You don't want to disturb it.

[aldo]

Boss battles in metroidvania-- these are of critical importance! Some are key to the story, some are just random monsters you have awakened... they can be something you are anticipating, such as using the nightmare key to open the door to the last room in the dungeon-- they can be sudden, such as walking into a room and the doors lock and a boss appears!

boss battles.

[J-Snake]

Well, I read into it that the reduced control in the air in Mario "might be okay."

Note that I am not talking about limited controls being bad. Limited controls can be good in order to provide puzzle-actions. I have explicitely talked about limiting the quality of controls. Those are two different things.


The quality of Super Metroid-controls is bad. What it means is that you can provide the intended action-potential with significantly less convoluted control-options and less consistency-breaks. Whether the best speed-runners agree or disagree won't change facts. You don't only have to play the games but you also have to approach systems from an analytical point of view in order to gain profound insights. This property is quantifiable and I have put a lot of analysis into it in order to deliver high and feasable action-potential in real-time. You can see here some real-time actions (this is not tas) of my "Super Metroid Tournament - Advanced Combat" work. I will continue to work on all that after certain other things are done.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9L0ikvd0XI&list=UUzrgKA2NpfnvMeUzLVnN3vA&index=8&feature=plcp