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[Pandara_RA!]

orc shoes, nashor's tooth, lich bane, frozen mallet, and rylai's, and rabadon's

You are totally correct about the people playing with you, though just for future reference
This build isn't cost efficient, because you get stats in there you cant make use of.
 
Attack damage from mallet (no armor pen/crit to make use of it stat wise)
Attack speed from nashors (no armor pen/crit/on hit to multiply)
Lich bane proc (No spells of mumu have short enough cool downs (minimum 4 second cooldown for break even efficancy iirc.)

I mean in all honestly I can build off and bring it in most games anyways, so they shouldn't be blaming you even if you built inefficient and or even crazy like went full AD so long as you were not the reason for failure in a battle.

[Paul Eres]

the frozen mallet is for the slow and hp, not the damage (same as rylai's)

and the lich bane worked really well, i could often burst someone from full hp to death with my q, w, e, r, and lich bane proc auto attack; it's only really meant to give a little extra damage so that you can kill someone, once; i played him like a grenade. but his e is really fast so i imagine i could get 2 or 3 off occasionally just from the e alone

[Pandara_RA!]

the frozen mallet is for the slow and hp, not the damage (same as rylai's)

and the lich bane worked really well, i could often burst someone from full hp to death with my q, w, e, r, and lich bane proc auto attack; it's only really meant to give a little extra damage so that you can kill someone, once; i played him like a grenade. but his e is really fast so i imagine i could get 2 or 3 off occasionally just from the e alone

Item slows don't stack, so if you are crying on them when you auto the slow from Rylais doesn't even apply =P. If the burst was just for a little extra, may as well have got death cap. does turning off/on tears quickly proc lich like it used to? I thought they patched that out but then again Olafs Axe still stacks twice for tear. but tantrum might actually hit the 4 second mark so not too bad.

I'm talking from a totally objective numbers standpoint, but I'm totally willing to give things chances.

EDIT: As a toggle ability, Despair will not charge

[allen]

yeah but he's playing arab

so who gives a fuck what his build is or if it makes sense or not

[Pandara_RA!]

yeah but he's playing arab

so who gives a fuck what his build is or if it makes sense or not

Oh um, yea you are correct, just trying to help improve everyones everything, bad habit/good habit.

I even do like hours of math and play testing in league to get the feel of certain things when people make statements. Love productive talk so I force it sometimes =P.

[Paul Eres]

are you sure the slow's don't stack? i believe slows stack multiplicatively, from what i read. e.g. 20% slow + 20% slow doesn't equal 40% slow, it equals 36% slow

[Pandara_RA!]

are you sure the slow's don't stack? i believe slows stack multiplicatively, from what i read. e.g. 20% slow + 20% slow doesn't equal 40% slow, it equals 36% slow

I'm certain the item slows do not stack at all.

The reason is because you can use only one item slow, but then you can stack that item slow with your already built in champion ability slows.


If a champion is affected by multiple slows, the strongest one will be fully applied, while the others are applied sequentially with 65% reduced effectiveness down to 35% of its original strength.
Slow effects derived from items' passives do NOT stack, even when coming from different champions. Only the strongest item slow is applied at any moment. The exception to this is the active effect of Randuin's Omen, Hextech Gunblade and Bilgewater Cutlass, which stacks with other slowing items normally because they are considered champion abilities for slow stacking purposes.

So not only do the items not stack, if another champ has a similar item with a lesser slow effect, they wont stack then either.

[Paul Eres]

why are you sure of this? this seems to contradict things like this:

Slow stacking

Slowing effects follow particular rules when stacking:

    If a champion is affected by multiple slows, the strongest one will be fully applied, while the others are applied sequentially with 65% reduced effectiveness down to 35% of its original strength.
    Slow effects derived from items' passives do NOT stack, even when coming from different champions. Only the strongest item slow is applied at any moment. The exception to this is the active effect of Randuin's Omen, Hextech Gunblade and Bilgewater Cutlass, which stacks with other slowing items normally because they are considered champion abilities for slow stacking purposes.
    Attacking a champion with the Blessing of the Lizard Elder buff when the target is already affected by that slow will reapply the debuff, resetting its duration. It will NOT increase the slow amount. The same holds true for the Exhaust summoner spell.

Example

A champion with a raw movement speed of 400 is affected by a 2 second long 40% slow and a 5 second long 20% slow at the same time.

    For the first two seconds, he will have (1 − 0.4) × (1 − 0.2 × 0.35) = 0.6 × 0.93 = 55.8% of his original movement speed (a 44.2% effective slow). So he will have 400 × 0.558 = 223.2 raw movement speed.
    For the following three seconds, the effective slow will be 20% and so he will have 400 × 0.8 = 320 movement speed.
    After that, he will return to his normal speed of 400.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Movement_speed

[Paul Eres]

oh, i see: that says that slows stack from different *abilities* and one *item*, but not from multiple items or the same item from different champions -- so you're right about rylai's and frozen heart not stacking, but slows still stack in other ways (e.g. rylai's stacks with nunu's slowball)

[Pandara_RA!]

Another fun discovery:

IE's DPS is beaten by a black clever + cloak of agility (200 cheaper cost) so long as you attack at least twice, and both hits don't proc a crit for the IE and the target has over 40 armor (aka everyone, assuming you have 31 armor pen)

Black clever then becomes crazy efficient if you use any ad ability on them (the armor reduce works)

Black clever then becomes ultra crazy crazy efficient if anyone else attacks them, as the armor reduction applies to everyone hitting the target, unlike penetration.

BC just has a harder build path, then the current "best" build order due to it giving too much attack speed. as the most efficient use of ad to attack speed ratio is 1% attack speed for every 2 ad, and the zeal doesn't fit then, leaving you without movement speed.

Boots 3 pot
d-blade
d-blade
Vamp Sept
BF sword
Zeal
Pick axe
infinity
Phantom dancer

[Paul Eres]

i always feel that black cleaver is underestimated, but i think in the long run IE is better because eventually when your build is finished you are reaching very high (near 100%) crit rates, and the extra damage on crits matters a lot more when the crit rate is higher. i'm not really sure why people get IE first, its power isn't actually realized until you have a crit % that's higher than the sword's own 25% rate

i think it's best to get one or two of the items that make up the IE (e.g. the ad items), then get phantom dancer, *then* finish the IE

also, usually people get last whisper in their builds at some point, and getting *both* last whisper and black cleaver is a bad idea due to how the calculations work, it's better to get either one or the other (it'd be like getting both void staff and abyssal scepter, although that combination is slightly better)

[Pandara_RA!]

i always feel that black cleaver is underestimated, but i think in the long run IE is better because eventually when your build is finished you are reaching very high (near 100%) crit rates, and the extra damage on crits matters a lot more when the crit rate is higher. i'm not really sure why people get IE first, its power isn't actually realized until you have a crit % that's higher than the sword's own 25% rate

also, usually people get last whisper in their builds at some point, and getting *both* last whisper and black cleaver is a bad idea due to how the calculations work, it's better to get either one or the other

Actually last whisper works well with BC still, it's insanely cost effective, and increases dps by a very large amount!

People used to argue that Flat AD was better than armor pen for this exact reason late game, but here is the graph showing the similar situation getting a last whisper. most would expect the armor pen to be worth less as you get last whisper...but the opposite is true, it's just always effective. till over 200 armor

[Paul Eres]

the way i figure it is this though: most characters have more armor than mpen (the base armor is higher for pretty much everyone). so late game, most characters will have about 100 armor even if they get no armor items. last whisper gives you 40% of that, which is 40, and black cleaver, after 3 hits, 45 (but it requires 3 hits to reach that). but if you have both: then the last whisper only cuts away 40% of their remaining 55 armor, or 22, instead of 40. so it does make last whisper less effective, even if, combined, they are still effective (since their armor is now only 33 after 3 hits); so they still lessen the value of one another, even if having both is good. it also takes up 2 item spots, which is more armor pen, but less attack speed and attack damage (since that item slot could be being used for something that gives more of those)

and yeah it's true that armor pen runes are better than ad runes, but i'm not sure what that has to do with whether or not getting both black cleaver and last whisper is better than getting just one of them, since the values differ

[InfiniteStateMachine]

What about characters with a lot of AD scaling abilities? I've noticed my early game goes a lot better with Riven on an AD page than with an ArPen page.

[Paul Eres]

yeah i think that applies only to ranged ad carries, and some auto-attackers like trynd. pure ad is good for many champions, like pantheon (the 5 bf sword build on pantheon is op)