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[filosofiamanga]

Ok, This seems a subject worthy of a thread.
I came from fighting games, they're my favorite type of games.

But I also have played some RPGs, but There's something that bothers me...
Remember when you have level +50 when you have a lot of HP/magic points and awesome skills?
I remember when I got that point, enemies can't kill me nor make me a lot of damage (except some -the hardest-) and that I can kill them with just 1 hit with awesome shit?
Yeah, It feels awesome, but FOR the first 10 minutes!, after that the games loses a little of magic and become boring.

I don't know about you, but games are supposed to become more harder as longer as you play it (becoming more familiar with the game mechanics and rules), making a magic that makes 9999 damage to all the monsters in the area and killing them all, doesn't seems like becoming a harder challenge. Or using a sword that makes more damage than the first weapon and getting an armor so enemies make you 0 damage.

Thinking about this in fighting games, they gave me some ideas that I would like to share to you:
*** Since the game should be easy in the first levels for newbies in the game, what about making the avatar in the first levels the same damage as actual 99 level in RPGs. (9999)
*** But since you increase your level, the game become harder, that is, you make less damage.
*** But, since increasing life number feels so good, what about mantaining that, more levels, more life (to support the damage made by monsters later in the game).
Although reducing life numbers while leveling up would make a more dificult game later.

You could say: BUT WHY? Who in the earth would want that shit?
I say look at the fighting games, the characters who have more potential to hardcore players (in terms of combo potential and yomi) are the weakest, Look at Angel and Maylee in Kof 2002 (weakest characters in terms of defence and life points but more combo potential and fancy stuff).

That's why I said: Leveling up should create a more dificult game, that is: less HP, less defence, less attack, but more gameplay stuff (more magic points, more spells).

So... a low level character could be like a TANK but slower with the reactions, but a higher level could be FASTER but also WEAKER.

Beign Faster could be well designed, like making more attacks per turn, making attacks with two hands, to be able to deflect and avoid more enemy attacks, etc.
The diference between spells could be the charging time to make the spell, so It gives an strategy layer to choosing the spell besides to just choosing the higher number.

That way Final bosses could have less HP than just some fucking millions.
Also they could make less damage, but being faster.

Even the same concept of Level up could be given new meaning, a new layer, like some player wanting to stay like Tanks never leveling up and other gamers who want more fancier stuff, more spells could level up knowing the consequences.
Also there could be some way to downgrade one's level, but losing fancy stuff.

That way we avoid the fucking Level grinding that some games have.
We also make a more interesting game at the end of the story mode, not just having amazing shit but no challenge at the end of the game. (Lol, 9999HP and Life3 with 99 Elixirs  )

It could be usefull for MMORPG, just lvl 1 people could join team with 45 lvl people.

What do you think?
It's there a way to avoid the ugly feeling of being too overpowered when high level in RPGs?

[SirNiko]

You might like to check out the Design forum - I know this idea has come up a few times before. Also the concept of a Metroidvania where you lose powers as you progress.

As an alternative to your suggestion, there is Kingdom of Loathing. Beating the game resets your level to 1, and lets you play again from the start to get a faster time. Because it is an RPG with experience points and treasure and such, progressing through the zones faster leaves you less and less well equipped to handle later areas. Advanced players eventually learn how to defeat monsters at the lowest level possible while navigating the game through the shortest path of all, and a huge segment of the strategy is whittling down the bare minimum requirements to defeat most monsters.

Also consider Final Fantasy 9's Excalibur 2, which required you to complete the game at lightning speed at low levels to acquire. That was a bit trickier, as there was much less room for error, but it neatly sidesteps the issue with RPGs growing progressively easier as you progress due to leveling mechanics.

[gimymblert]

seriously search button before posting help

It's funny but this idea poped up a bit everywhere these days.

[filosofiamanga]

You might like to check out the Design forum - I know this idea has come up a few times before. Also the concept of a Metroidvania where you lose powers as you progress...

But I don't mean this idea as a Bonus mode, but as the normal "story" mode.
You seem to suggest a speed run or minimum mode, where player doesn't have much time to finish the game, I see in that aproach the leveling up couldn't be diferent that normal leveling up.

seriously search button before posting help
It's funny but this idea poped up a bit everywhere these days.

Ok, I'll try next time to use the search button.
Eventually it's an interesting topic that deserves though and revisiting, maybe new gamers come with new ideas.

[gimymblert]

I'm just saying that not to prevent you to create thread, but you seems to be unaware that those discussion had happen and seems to start "hey new idea, have you thought of this?" instead you could have started "I had this idea that was discussed there but i'm not going to necroing thing guy so here is my thread!"

[dasdsad]

?_? What?

Seriously? You're going to give him a hard time about THAT?

[filosofiamanga]

I'm just saying that not to prevent you to create thread, but you seems to be unaware that those discussion had happen and seems to start "hey new idea, have you thought of this?" instead you could have started "I had this idea that was discussed there but i'm not going to necroing thing guy so here is my thread!"

It's obvious that I'm unaware of those discussion, mainly because I'm new in this forum.
Ok, Thanks for the tips, I'll use them next time.

[dEnamed]

Levelling down is a terrible mechanic in my books, since it punishes progress and rewards stagnation. You can already see this a bit in games that temporarily take away your equipment or have very bad level scaling.
Levelups are a pretty nifty system. The level in itself is already rewarding on its own. It also unlocks new abilities and controls progress in the story. Plus it doubles as a fully configurable difficulty setting. If the game is too easy for you, all you need to do is skip battles for a bit. If a boss turns out unbeatable, go and prepare for it until the difficulty matches your skills.
Furthermore I'm inclined to say that level up is the very foundation behind games, at least in an abstract sense as it is closely tied to reward and progress. For example if you beat a level in Super Mario World, you unlock several new areas. You essentially level up your area access. Or if you pick up an item in Super Metroid, you level up too by growing in strength and once again unlocking new areas - opening up your game progress.

Now game developers have toyed with the idea of diminishing strength before and experimented on it, although in smaller scenarios. For example Prince of Persia: Warrior Within has a section that has you constantly lose health. It's meant to induce a sense of danger but basically just led to curse and rage on my part. Not because it was difficult but because no matter how good I did, I still lost something.
Same goes to some FPS Games, there's often a point where you lose all weapons and the saved ammo along with them. Seldomly have I raged more than in those moments, especially since I like to conserve the ammo of stronger weapons - only to have it all disappear in a blink. Again I was punished for playing well.

Case in point, the Flash Game Upgrade Complete was essentially a (troll) game to usher in that relying on levelups is very bad and stupid (as seen on the ending screen). The irony behind it: The game is fun with nothing but the updates to carry it along and has universally achieved good marks and playtimes on flashsites all around.

My hypothesis is thus:
Levelups are, in an abstract way, part of every game. And they need to be there as they are the driving factor behind gameplay. You play to progress, not to stagnate.

[filosofiamanga]

Levelling down is a terrible mechanic in my books, since it punishes progress and rewards stagnation. You can already see this a bit in games that temporarily take away your equipment or have very bad level scaling...

Well, you complaint seem because leveling down is "made" or designed to punish you.
But like the other forum pal say, this design is made to TRADE OFF between the strengh and the skill of the avatar, if you lose level, good, you are not punish in the sense of losing something valuable, but more in the sense of trading some skills to gain strengh.
The only point i'm not really sure how It should be is in the HP part, more HP makes the game easier but also it's more satisfying, but if you choose high level, that proves you want skill, so It means also that you're supposed to play without losing as much life points than a beginner, that's why the begginer should have more life points, because he's more clumsy making mistakes that a skilled player wouldn't make.
Yeah, I agree level up is a nifty system, but It also has it's flaws, like being too overpowered at the end of the game, also the diference between a high level avatar and one low depends more on the "rewards" than on the player skill, rewarding level grinding.

I think we have more a problem in the meaning of level up, I mean level up as the atributes in the damage and other player stadistics (INT, CONST, HP), not as getting more gameplay stuff like weapons or spells, I mean Level up like when in a RPG say "Level up".
I think rewards like diferent parts (weapons) in Metroid are just rewards and in some way diferent than the meaning I want to use (player's stats).
That's why I say in the design that a low level player should have access to basic but powerfull weapons or stuff, that are usefull to a low skill player, but are not so usefull to a high skilled player. Again, we found an example with fighting games, newbies seems to like powerfull characters (Yashiro Oroshi in KOF 2002), again these characters are designed to have little gameplay complexity (less capability to make combos, more slow) so they're not interesting to hardcore and more skilled players that like more "Fancy" and dificult to pull off stuff.

A good example could be a lvl 1 weapon that shoot 1 bullet and make 5 damage each 3 seconds (recovering time) compared to a lvl 5 weapon that make 2 damage each 1 second (recovering time).
Easily you can do the Math and see the lvl 5 is more usefull, even if it make less damage.
So, a newbie will not be at a huge disadvantage when starting the game, but a hardcore gamer will prefer the most usefull weapon so he will level up, so It could be a better design, even better for MMORPG.

Another example could be a lvl 1 armor with high defence, compared to a lvl 5 armor that has less defence but more chance to deflect the enemy hits (MISS), also being inmune to poison.
A new player will feel comfortable with the lvl 1 but a skilled player could like more the lvl 5.

You're right that leveling up is important in games, but that doesn't work in multiplayer games (fighting games, racing games, sport games, FPS, RTS) because all the players should be equal to be a balanced game (I'm talking in VS matches).
That's the inspiration I used to make this hopefully new design, although It's not so new and you can see it easily in Fighting games.

You seem to mean getting new gameplay stuff as a big reward, I agree in that part, I say games should keep using that "as is", but I disagree in the part that a high lvl avatar should be so overpowered that become cheap compared to a low lvl player.

Remember: I don't say leveling down as a way to punish the player, but more like a TRADE off between brute force and Skill.

[_Tommo_]

I would say that it would be an interesting mechaning in games designed for "conscious gamers", ie: those who have a good knowledge of rpg mechanics and want to try something new and complex.
While it would be downright bad for casual games where random achievements, shiny rewards, and overpowering to the end of the game are real selling points.
I mean, many player LIKE to own the game toward the end, they expect the game to be easy eventually. If the game keeps punishing them they will feel frustrated and abandon it.
"they" as in "me too", as I'm not an avid RPG gamer at all.

@filosofiamanga: there's a merit in being able to summarize, you know. Maybe I could read your posts if you written a bit less than an half of this.

[s0]

Not an RPG, but God Hand has what you could call a "level down" mechanic. Your level increases as you hit enemies and dodge attacks. Taking damage decreases your level.

What's interesting about that is that level-ups don't do what they do in most other games (i.e. give you an advantage). In fact it's the opposite: The higher your level, the tougher your enemies get. At the 4th and highest level (appropriately called "Level Die") the game becomes so bone-breakingly hard, it verges on "masocore" games like I Wanna Be The Guy and Mighty Jill Off. It's the only game I'm aware of that scales difficulty in both directions.

[superflat]

I've never seen this idea mentioned before, so thanks for posting, filosofiamanga. I really like your idea of leveling up not being an absolute increase in strength, but rather a trade-off between strength and speed/agility -- I'd love to play a game where that was implemented! Sounds like if it were done right, it could be a lot of fun.

Actually this is used to some extent in Demon's Souls.  Often by upgrading your weapons and armour along a certain path, you are making tradeoffs in terms of all-round ability in order to specialise.  You may have one axe that you could choose between making powerful in magic damage, but weak in physical, or give it more advantage from your strength stat but in doing so lose the advantage from your dexterity.  These kind of tradeoffs work throughout the game, and I find it really compelling.

[bento_smile]

Every game should be like Demon's Souls :D (maybe.)

Randomly, I'm a fan of games using a exp system with a curve to it... Like Persona or Suikoden, where if you hang around grinding on low level enemies, you get less and less exp. (If that makes sense.) The advantage is that the designers have more control over what level the player is at any point, so they can design the game to be more consistently challenging. It is quite hard to become overpowered, and also the diminishing exp is a reason to move on to more challenging areas/levels.

[s0]

Actually this is used to some extent in Demon's Souls.  Often by upgrading your weapons and armour along a certain path, you are making tradeoffs in terms of all-round ability in order to specialise.  You may have one axe that you could choose between making powerful in magic damage, but weak in physical, or give it more advantage from your strength stat but in doing so lose the advantage from your dexterity.  These kind of tradeoffs work throughout the game, and I find it really compelling.

Yeah, Demon's Souls' equipment system is pretty great. I also like how the gear with the highest stats is not necessarily the best and how different gear is often useful in different situations. Not a lot of RPGs do that to the same extent.

[filosofiamanga]

I would say that it would be an interesting mechaning in games designed for "conscious gamers", ie: those who have a good knowledge of rpg mechanics and want to try something new and complex.
@filosofiamanga: there's a merit in being able to summarize, you know. Maybe I could read your posts if you written a bit less than an half of this.

Yeah, some gamers would still want a more traditional aproach, still being too overpowered and have awesome stuff just to be in a epic battle with the core center of the evil in the last battle of the game. I understand also that, but It has some problems like in the MMORPG.
  Sorry, I'll try to make a disclaimer with the summarize next time and a TL:DR caption before start writing like crazy.
But make me wonder why you're in a forum if you don't want to read.

Not an RPG, but God Hand has what you could call a "level down" mechanic. Your level increases as you hit enemies and dodge attacks. Taking damage decreases your level...

It's not the aproach I was having in mind, but seems like a cool alternative idea to make a game.
But I haven't played that game, I remember watching some crazy videos on youtube, the   + shows it's a crazy and fun game.

Actually this is used to some extent in Demon's Souls.  Often by upgrading your weapons and armour along a certain path, you are making tradeoffs in terms of all-round ability in order to specialise.

I remember watching some trailer of the game long time ago, I came back from digging some review on youtube, and I have to say I'm very surprise of that fact you mention. Looks a nice approach to avoid beign too overpowered, I would like to play the game, but I'm not fan of MMORPG (I don't want to end like WOW players     ).
I really hope the Demon's souls approach make some new games to explore other alternatives than the traditional level grinding in the RPG genre.

[s0]

Demon's Souls is not an MMO!
It's an action RPG with a multiplayer mode (think Diablo, Phantasy Star Online). Big difference.

And did you read the second paragraph of my post about God Hand? Leveling "up" is actually a disadvantage in that game. It gets harder for players who perform well.

[filosofiamanga]

Demon's Souls is not an MMO!
It's an action RPG with a multiplayer mode (think Diablo, Phantasy Star Online). Big difference.

And did you read the second paragraph of my post about God Hand? Leveling "up" is actually a disadvantage in that game. It gets harder for players who perform well.

Sorry, I haven't played the game, but seems the multiplayer will be online, so It's a similar stuff (ok, maybe not so similar).

Yeah, but becoming harder is actually a good thing for some players (HARDCORE players), I don't see it as a REAL disadvantage, the player doesn't lose anything.
It can even become a motivation for some players.

[Alevice]

A leveling down mechanic tied to game progress could be tied to a narrative mechanic. It could be that if you want to progeess in the game, you have to trade some trait of yours, down to the point you would be stripped of everything and anything when you are near the end. It gives players tha backwrads choice to see what they are willing to sacrifice in order to finish the game.

[FrankieSmileShow]

Yeah I remember having some idea about a metroid-like game where you start out as an all-powerful figure in heaven, and must give up your powers one by one at special shrines in order to descend into the mortal realm / hell / whatever. The shrines would be levels built specifically so that the way out is made much harder after having lost that shrine's power. A central hub area would change very little as you play, but your disappearing powers would make navigating it increasingly restrained, difficult and dangerous, eventually being unable to go back to the start of the game and losing access to entire areas of the game. Maybe a recurring boss battle where the enemy itself changes very little, your own waning powers being enough to escalate its difficulty at every round.

[s0]

Yeah I remember having some idea about a metroid-like game where you start out as an all-powerful figure in heaven, and must give up your powers one by one at special shrines in order to descend into the mortal realm / hell / whatever. The shrines would be levels built specifically so that the way out is made much harder after having lost that shrine's power. A central hub area would change very little as you play, but your disappearing powers would make navigating it increasingly restrained, difficult and dangerous, eventually being unable to go back to the start of the game and losing access to entire areas of the game. Maybe a recurring boss battle where the enemy itself changes very little, your own waning powers being enough to escalate its difficulty at every round.

I wanna see that made!