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TIGSource ForumsDeveloperDesignCosmic Frontier Feature Poll - New Question 6/16
Poll
Question: Should Planets Be Surfaceable? If So, What should you be able to do?
You Should Have to Terraform the Planet.. - 1 (7.1%)
Non Hospitable Planets should be able to be Mining Planets - 4 (28.6%)
There should be a City Building aspect On Habitable planets. - 5 (35.7%)
Flying around should be all you need - 3 (21.4%)
There should be a Walking element. - 0 (0%)
Planets Should not be Landable. All the Features should be on Orbiting Stations. - 1 (7.1%)
Total Voters: 6

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Author Topic: Cosmic Frontier Feature Poll - New Question 6/16  (Read 2835 times)
Snowdrama
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« on: June 11, 2011, 01:18:20 AM »

Im Letting you guys help me decide on some Feature Changes for a game I'm working on called Cosmic Frontier

The First Poll has Ended, Thanks to everyone Who Voted, The General Opinion is that it would be cool to see, if It was properly Implemented. Most of the info on Planet Orbits is Below but The Last Little bit I worked out is Not below but Works out well, Trust me Wink The Rate I think Ive Decided on is 1 Minute Real Time = 1 Day in game time. This Makes it take 6 Hours and 5 Minutes of Gameplay to = 1 Earth Year in Game time, I May change it but I feel its fast enough to make Time Pass Fast enough to Notice the Passage of time and movements of planets but Slow enough that if you go to take a Poop for 5 minutes and you come back the Planet will have moved, but not by a lot. Ill work this out in Tests over time, But for now Ill stick with what I Have for my Initial release.

The New Poll is about Surfacing Planets. Initially I had not planned to add support to the planets so you could surface until a couple of people I know had asked if I was going too add a "Mass Effect" type thing where they could Surface the planet. and Initially said no, as one of the things I hated about Mass Effect 1 was the Driving around on the Planet...

But Recently Ive had a Change in Heart, and have been considering it as long as I Make it More Fun and Less Tedious. Im Interested to know what kind of Planet interaction people would like to see in Cosmic Frontier. Some Ideas have beem:

Terraforming Planets: Setting up Atmosphere Generators, and Power Supplies, Setting Up either Plant Life on suitable Planets or Beginning Mining operations.

Building Cities: Setting up Planets with Power, Housing, Business, and trade. As a Result after Trade is set up, a Trade Station Will Orbit the Planet, where you Can buy randomly Generated Items.

City Walking: I got a Request last time I mentioned Building Cities, I was asked if there was a Way I could add Going down to the Surface and Walk around go to shops and stuff on the planet. (This one is only Possible if I include Building Cities, and Internal Ships, Internal Ships being another Poll For later)I have Yet to Decide What View it will be, but it will likely be isometric or Side scrolling-esk(like Streets of Rage) Like Internal Ships, The City Walking will Be Directly related to How the City is Shaped.



Poll 1 Results(6/16/11):
Yes, It makes it Realistic    - 4 (30.8%)
Yes, It adds a Challenge    - 2 (15.4%)
Yes, It adds to the Exploration    - 4 (30.8%)
No, It makes things hard to find    - 0 (0%)
No, it makes Traveling too Complicated    - 1 (7.7%)
No I dont want to have to Calculate new Planet positions all the time(see Post below))    - 2 (15.4%)
Total Voters: 6
« Last Edit: June 15, 2011, 08:46:33 PM by Jay_PC » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2011, 05:51:35 AM »

Alright, well. Making the planets in motion would add a lot to gameplay, but this is a significantly more complicated problem than it first lends itself out to be.


So let's assume each planet has got an X,Y and a predictable course of travel, where you can plug in T and nab a point from an equation.


We'll call the target planet's coordinates Px(Pt) and Py(Pt)
We'll call the ship's coordinates Sx and Sy and the ship's velocity Sv
To make things a bit easier to explain, right now is 0 time.


To solve this problem, we need to stop thinking in 2 dimensional space, and see how time as a third dimension means we're doing 3D geometry to solve this problem.


First, imagine we have a cone. The cone's vertex is at (Sx,Sy,0) and we extend the height of this cone to the maximum amount of time we think it could possibly take for our ship to reach the planet. The cone is oriented so that the base is below the vertex and parallel to the X,Y plane. At any given Y from the top of the cone toward the bottom along the spine, the radius of this cone is equal to Sv*Y, which means that we can think of the surface of this cone as containing all points that the ship can possibly reach within the extent of time that we're checking for. We can't allow the cone's height to extend infinitely because that would be impractical from a computational standpoint, we must find a sensible maximum and stick with it.

And then we plot the trajectory of the planet in 3D space (the path being formed by a collection of points (Px(T),Py(T),T)) for the same length of time as we've made the cone.

We take these two geometric entities, the cone and the trajectory path, and we look for points where the path intersects with the face of the cone. Honestly, I'm not sure how you'd do bit without iterating through every point on the trajectory and checking it with the cone, so this might be a rather substantial speed hit.

We take the intersection with the least T coordinate and find the angle on the XY plane from the origin to the intersection, and set the ship on a linear path at that angle, and their trajectories will intercept in T time.


Long story short, you can let the player move a ship to a certain planet and the computer calculates the rest. Alternatively, a player making these calculations is highly impractical and would result in frustration.
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Snowdrama
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« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2011, 09:14:38 PM »

Alright, well. Making the planets in motion would add a lot to gameplay, but this is a significantly more complicated problem than it first lends itself out to be.
I Figured this, Getting them to orbit, Not a super big issue. already got the Orbit working. its more a matter of deciding how to not make it Frustrating Which I feel I have working.

We take these two geometric entities, the cone and the trajectory path, and we look for points where the path intersects with the face of the cone. Honestly, I'm not sure how you'd do bit without iterating through every point on the trajectory and checking it with the cone, so this might be a rather substantial speed hit.
Systems are separated groups of planets. there's a formula, and literally all I have to do is update the planets time. which happens when the player enters the system. so only the system your currently in is updating.

the Algorythim I use for Eliptical Orbits isent complicated. it uses normal Point on a Circle based on angle and Radius.

x = cx + r * cos(a)
y = cy + r * sin(a)

but modifies r based on angle. Still working on handling all the quadrants but EVENTUALLY it will make a Ellipse and all you have to do is determine angle based on velocity/time.

Not exactly real physics but Effectively makes a planet that moves when T is changed.

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« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2011, 09:48:16 PM »

For everyone who Chose "No I dont want to have to Calculate new Planet positions all the time"

At the beginning of the game, you are in a System made entirely of man made Stations. that do not change their locations. I refer to this as the Home base because its Always findable. at this point in the game you only have the Galaxy map. The Galaxy map lets you set nav points and change the time so you can see updated Planet locations.

After completing or not completing the optional pseudo-tutorial. you can Venture out and eventually come across a planet! This Planet will be logged in your Galaxy map with all its info.

After a Suggestion from a crew member(that happens Right after you find your First planet), you can find the Upgraded NavComputer is Available in the ship upgrade shop(if you did the tutorial or played before you would know where this is but it can always be found on the map by hovering over it).

The Upgraded computer allows you to set Nav Points like the base map. but also set Planets as Nav points. this will calculate a orbit intercept point, which is a point that assuming you travel directly there at full speed, and take no detours, the planet will be there.

and Lastly after Discovering your Seccond System(that isent the home base) Your Given the last upgrade as a gift, from a Story character.

If that Helps change your mind Let me know
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« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2011, 10:30:16 PM »

the Algorythim I use for Eliptical Orbits isent complicated. it uses normal Point on a Circle based on angle and Radius.

x = cx + r * cos(a)
y = cy + r * sin(a)

but modifies r based on angle. Still working on handling all the quadrants but EVENTUALLY it will make a Ellipse and all you have to do is determine angle based on velocity/time.

Well, you say it's not real physics, but why not? F = G m1 m2 / r^2 should create exactly the orbit you want.

One thing interesting about orbit is that if you're in Florida and trying to get to the moon, depending on when you launch you either would want to go up or around the Earth. (familiar example, not correct one) So, if time is a major factor in how your game works and you make planing a rout convenient, then the logistics could create a rewarding challenge for the player, making sure to travel in such a way that each planet is as close-as-possible to the next one.

If time is only a factor in calculating the ship's position, i don't know this would add much to the game. Though, this is the first i've heard of it, so i chose not to vote since i'm just ignorant.
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« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2011, 11:26:38 PM »

So, if time is a major factor in how your game works and you make planing a rout convenient, then the logistics could create a rewarding challenge for the player, making sure to travel in such a way that each planet is as close-as-possible to the next one.

If time is only a factor in calculating the ship's position, i don't know this would add much to the game. Though, this is the first i've heard of it, so i chose not to vote since i'm just ignorant.

Timing your travel is a Core aspect of the space travel portion of the game. Its Slightly Difficult but but planning a route is easy after the first upgrade.



This Image is a concept for Plotting a course, but in game would be represented by an animation where the Blue dot follows the grey line and the Green dot follows the Black Circle. Showing that at 5 The Player should be able to see the planet.

Well, you say it's not real physics, but why not? F = G m1 m2 / r^2 should create exactly the orbit you want.

Im staying on the safe side, If I get a Hiccup that increases that perfect Orbit a little, the planets will start getting pulled into the stars. Id love to try it but id rather stay safe with this.

On top of that, Planets and Systems are Randomly Generated. So there's a Level of Random in there that I cant Predict. plus Safe Predictable orbits make Plotting courses easier.
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« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2011, 05:59:34 AM »

For orbits, why not at least make them elliptical? It's more accurate than what you've got now and probably not as much of a bother as what Splinter suggested.
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« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2011, 06:59:07 AM »

Well, you say it's not real physics, but why not? F = G m1 m2 / r^2 should create exactly the orbit you want.

Im staying on the safe side, If I get a Hiccup that increases that perfect Orbit a little, the planets will start getting pulled into the stars. Id love to try it but id rather stay safe with this.

On top of that, Planets and Systems are Randomly Generated. So there's a Level of Random in there that I cant Predict. plus Safe Predictable orbits make Plotting courses easier.

I can see why you might want to do it that way, but talking about theoretical problems is pointless since you don't know for sure they'll happen and there are many ways of getting around them (considering how many gravitational physics simulations that exist). Besides, you could correct the distance from the star and velocity of the orbiting object easily by correcting them once per period (if not more often).

If you really don't want to go that way, why not use Kepler's equasion for a planet's position based on time? Even if you did make your current equasion more eliptical, it wouldn't look right if you changed the planet's angle in orbit based on time (which is what it looks like you're doing). After all, objects move fastest when close to their target, slowest when away, and it's the opposite for points with constant angular velocities.

EDIT: On second thought, i'm trying to make my way though that article i linked, but i think you and Kepler are working with completely different data sets, but the page itself might still be useful. In particular, his second law, if you can figure out the partial area of an elipse.

On the other hand, if you don't want to mess with the difficult math, i don't think many gamers would complain that planets orbit in circular paths.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2011, 07:16:57 AM by SplinterOfChaos » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2011, 05:01:33 PM »

For orbits, why not at least make them elliptical? It's more accurate than what you've got now and probably not as much of a bother as what Splinter suggested.

My example Drawing was poor but the end result is Elliptical. Belosw is a Transformation of a Circle to an Ellipse. Basicly as you approach 0 or 180 there is a increasing Change in the radius.



The Final Product can have them rotated any which way by adding a Starting angle to the equation. instead of the Ellipse extending out at 0 and 180 you could do 30 and 210.

assuming I do it right I could also make irregular ellipses by changing the angles at which the radius extends.

EDIT: On second thought, i'm trying to make my way though that article i linked, but i think you and Kepler are working with completely different data sets, but the page itself might still be useful. In particular, his second law, if you can figure out the partial area of an elipse.

On the other hand, if you don't want to mess with the difficult math, i don't think many gamers would complain that planets orbit in circular paths.

The Seccond Law thing actually really helps. I have a way to make an Elipcical Path. but I believe I can Update My equations

by adding dSun and dCenter, or Distance to the Sun vs Distance to the Center of the Ellipse, I can Help Develop a Change in speed to get the "Faster When Closer" effect without breaking the Static orbit. See Figure 3
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« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2011, 04:40:29 PM »

Work has been Slow the Past week, Ive had to work every day, tomorrow will be my first day in a while to sit down and Really WORK on the game.

The exact formula for Orbits is done, I'm looking to discuss Ship building as my next question. as Much as Id love for it to be complete customization, I think that having to Physically Maintain and repair more then 1000 parts is a bit much(Probably work this out more in play testing)

Right now I'm working on designing the surface elements of planets. creating colonies and terraforming.

I'm going to be working very hard on this tomorrow, and anyone interested in chatting with me let me know, as I'm trying to barrow a USB Headset cause when I tried to use my old headset, it made this horrid buzzing sound(bad grounding?)


P.S. for some reason Spell check thinks chatting is spelled wrong... Not that its important, but it shows you that nothing is perfect I suppose.

P.P.S. I'm working on my Music Library tonight to get some good Programing music. my 3 starting bands are Daft Punk, Pendulum, and Deadmau5 any more Ideas?
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« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2011, 10:09:47 AM »

P.P.S. I'm working on my Music Library tonight to get some good Programing music. my 3 starting bands are Daft Punk, Pendulum, and Deadmau5 any more Ideas?

If you like pre-discovery Daft Punk then I would suggest Ratatat.

However the crystal method and Darren Styles would work as well.
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