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1055561 Posts in 42864 Topics- by 34797 Members - Latest Member: timdan

October 21, 2014, 11:58:46 AM
TIGSource ForumsPlayerGeneralMovies
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Schoq
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« Reply #460 on: February 23, 2013, 12:50:40 PM »

I'm pretty sure that "high frame rate = fake/cheap" is a learned association that can be unlearned.
I definitely noticed it, mainly when when the frame was panning or just when something moved quickly, it gives a much clearer image than it would have in 24 fps, which is apparently a bad thing for a lot of people :P

The 3D did bother me a lot though (first movie I saw in 3D), made it hard for me to focus on things most of the time and the stupid subtitles often broke the depth and felt even more in the way than usual.
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« Reply #461 on: February 23, 2013, 01:23:15 PM »

I'm pretty sure that "high frame rate = fake/cheap" is a learned association that can be unlearned.

I hope so, because it's ridiculous. All other things being equal, a higher frame rate can't make something look worse. The fact that most movies and TV shows run at 24 FPS has bothered me for my entire life, so I'd really love to see 48 FPS catch on and get used more.
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Christian Knudsen
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« Reply #462 on: February 23, 2013, 01:31:33 PM »

I feel that motion blur has become such an ingrained part of the cinematic language that I'd hate to see it go. Sad
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Schoq
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« Reply #463 on: February 23, 2013, 01:31:59 PM »

Yeah, I'm not sure why for sound, colour and spatial resolution everyone always wants higher fidelity, but when it comes to temporal resolution some will argue for pages in favour of never going higher than the bare minimum required to see what's going on Hand Thumbs Down Right
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Christian Knudsen
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« Reply #464 on: February 23, 2013, 02:48:20 PM »

Even in 60 FPS computer games, motion blur is added for effect. It just enhances the sense of speed, and without it, things feel tame. Shrug
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Schoq
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« Reply #465 on: February 23, 2013, 02:56:13 PM »

Motion blur is temporal interpolation, it's needed less the more actual resolution you have.
dum

Nothing is stopping you from motion blurring like a motherfucker for effect at 120 fps, for that matter. It's just that you don't need to in order to save the picture from being a choppy mess.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2013, 03:03:36 PM by Schoq » Logged

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Christian Knudsen
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« Reply #466 on: February 23, 2013, 03:24:28 PM »

What does screen resolution have to do with motion blur?
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« Reply #467 on: February 23, 2013, 04:09:59 PM »

Temporal resolution (frames per second), not spatial resolution (pixels wide/high)
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crowe
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« Reply #468 on: February 23, 2013, 04:16:05 PM »

I did not see the 48fps cut. However, I will say that there are plenty of people who actually get motion sickness from playing videogames and other high-speed video like that who might actually get sick from seeing a movie played out in that speed. My brother went to see it in that way and said it made him physically ill.
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C.A. Silbereisen
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« Reply #469 on: February 23, 2013, 04:21:37 PM »

what i did notice was that the faster panning shots hurt my eyes and were hard to follow. im not sure if that was the 3d (i get eyestrain from 3d very easily) or the framerate, or both though.
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Christian Knudsen
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« Reply #470 on: February 24, 2013, 12:05:52 AM »

Temporal resolution (frames per second), not spatial resolution (pixels wide/high)

The post he links to is about screen resolution.

Nothing is stopping you from motion blurring like a motherfucker for effect at 120 fps, for that matter. It's just that you don't need to in order to save the picture from being a choppy mess.

How exactly does this work? Do you capture multiple overlaying frames at the same time in order to get motion blur at HFR?
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« Reply #471 on: February 24, 2013, 06:13:59 AM »

I linked that because I happened to have said the same thing about space and colour a day ago.

And yeah, one thing you can do is let adjacent frames bleed into each other.
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Christian Knudsen
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« Reply #472 on: February 24, 2013, 07:06:33 AM »

I linked that because I happened to have said the same thing about space and colour a day ago.

I guess I see where you're coming from, but it's not really the same, I think. With retina displays (or any future displays where you actually can't see the separate pixels), not only is anti-aliasing no longer needed, but even if you did have it, you wouldn't be able to see it. But the lack of motion blur is quite apparent no matter how high frame rates you're capturing/playing back at.

But I guess I was just to locked in an analog state of mind and couldn't quite wrap my head around capturing more than one frame at a time in order to get motion blur at HFR. Smiley
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« Reply #473 on: February 24, 2013, 12:43:34 PM »

But the lack of motion blur is quite apparent no matter how high frame rates you're capturing/playing back at.

I don't think this is actually true. However, 48 FPS isn't nearly enough to make motion blur imperceptible. I once ran an old game of mine on a CRT at 200Hz, and perceptually it was as if I'd implemented motion blur. That's just subjective memory on my part, but if you get a chance, try playing a game at an extremely high refresh rate like that (3DTVs run at 240Hz when displaying 3D imagery, maybe there's some way to tap into that for 2D and send separate images for each frame?), and you should see what I mean.
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Christian Knudsen
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« Reply #474 on: February 24, 2013, 01:31:43 PM »

I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that you got motion blur that wasn't there before in one of your games by running it at a high frame rate?

EDIT: And I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I'm not saying that there will be no motion blur no matter how high frame rates your recording at. I was replying to what Schoq was talking about in the linked post; that anti-aliasing won't be needed with retina displays (or actual displays where you can't make out each individual pixel) and likewise motion blur won't be needed for HFR. I disagree with that, because with retina displays, you can't tell the difference between something that's anti-aliased and something that's not, since you can't make out the individual pixels. But with HFR, you will always be able to tell the difference between something with motion blur and something without. I'm just saying that it's not comparable.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2013, 01:37:13 PM by Christian Knudsen » Logged

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« Reply #475 on: February 24, 2013, 02:06:56 PM »

I disagree with that, because with retina displays, you can't tell the difference between something that's anti-aliased and something that's not, since you can't make out the individual pixels. But with HFR, you will always be able to tell the difference between something with motion blur and something without. I'm just saying that it's not comparable.

That's exactly what I'm saying, and it's perfectly comparable. As Schoq alluded to earlier, anti-aliasing is spatial interpolation, and motion blur is temporal interpolation. How exactly will you be able to tell the difference between something with and without motion blur at an extremely high frame rate? For a simple example, suppose an object moves 10 pixels in one frame at a low frame rate, so it's motion blurred over those 10 pixels to simulate a higher frame rate. If instead of doing that, the frame rate is multiplied by 10, and the object moves discretely by one pixel per frame, essentially the same information reaches your eyes over that period of time, just in 10 increments instead of all at once.

Now, that's not to say you couldn't extrapolate motion blur so that the information of more than 2 adjacent frames is represented in a single frame, just as you could extrapolate anti-aliasing so that the color of one pixel bleeds farther in one direction than into the pixel directly next to it...but that would be a weird stylistic choice that would make things blurrier than necessary.

As you say, you can't see anti-aliasing on a retina display since you can't make out individual pixels. With a high enough frame rate (which 48 is not), you won't be able to make out individual frames. Same deal. How do you see those two as fundamentally different?
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Schoq
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« Reply #476 on: February 24, 2013, 02:18:48 PM »

the spatial equivalent would be how a blurry high res image compares to an antialiased low res image
and super strictly technically I think both both aa and motion blur is more correctly referred to as a form of oversampling rather than interpolation but
this kind of got ridiculous half a page ago
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Christian Knudsen
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« Reply #477 on: February 24, 2013, 02:21:42 PM »

That's exactly what I'm saying, and it's perfectly comparable. As Schoq alluded to earlier, anti-aliasing is spatial interpolation, and motion blur is temporal interpolation. How exactly will you be able to tell the difference between something with and without motion blur at an extremely high frame rate? For a simple example, suppose an object moves 10 pixels in one frame at a low frame rate, so it's motion blurred over those 10 pixels to simulate a higher frame rate. If instead of doing that, the frame rate is multiplied by 10, and the object moves discretely by one pixel per frame, essentially the same information reaches your eyes over that period of time, just in 10 increments instead of all at once.

If you record something at 24 FPS it will have motion blur, i.e. each individual frame will have motion blur. If you record at 48 FPS, there will be much less motion blur. That's why James Cameron has been talking up 48 FPS in relation to Avatar and why he's shooting Avatar 2, 3 and 4 in 48 FPS. Because motion blur ruins the 3D effect to some degree.

The lack of motion blur at 48 FPS or any HFR will be obvious compared to the motion blur at 24 FPS. And even 48 FPS with motion blur will look different from 48 FPS without motion blur. But with retina displays, you can't tell the difference between an anti-aliased image and one that isn't if you can't discern the individual pixels.

Also, I don't think you can call motion blur temporal interpolation. Stuff like Motion Flow is temporal interpolation.

EDIT: Yeah, temporal or motion interpolation is actually trying to compensate for motion blur: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_interpolation
« Last Edit: February 24, 2013, 02:46:17 PM by Christian Knudsen » Logged

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« Reply #478 on: February 24, 2013, 03:09:31 PM »

this kind of got ridiculous half a page ago

Agreed. I think Christian and I are still talking about slightly different things, but I'll bow out of the discussion.
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« Reply #479 on: February 25, 2013, 04:51:51 PM »

Searching for Sugar Man is a really good documentary. Rodriguez story is more of a Nick Drake-story than the story of Nick Drake. I don't know how behind I am on hearing his stuff (technically 40 years I guess) but I am still excited. His voice sounds very much like James Taylor but more monotone. His lyrics are excellent.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2013, 04:58:13 PM by Mono » Logged

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