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[baconman]

Outside of dungeonyness, I'm kinda thinking that a 3-button combat system would work with this game nicely. Sweep will sweep your weapon in an arc for average damage, Direct will attack straight forward a tile-and-a-half for 150% damage, and Shot will attack a direct line in front of you for 50% damage - with a slight millisecond of random headshot (IE: system clock = %sec%.00 or %sec%.77). That same result would be true for criticals, should you have those... and if you're into feature creep, a similar circumstance could result in a player "fumble" as well!

EDIT: The more I envision this, the more it plays out like a 2D, Zelda-like alternative of Samurai Warriors. Perhaps start amateur designers out with some editable, copypaste room designs?

[mokesmoe]

I think you should have dungeons that you just build and forget about, like a mini-sentry in TF2. The building interface should be quick and easy to use, so you can make your dungeon quickly. Once it's made, you never touch it again.

Everyone starts the game with one level 1 heart to build a dungeon with. When adventurers die in the dungeon, the heart gain experience, but doesn't level up until it's stolen. You don't gain any of the rewards from others failing in your dungeon until the heart is taken and it's destroyed. This means if you make a impossible dungeon, you won't gain anything from it.

At any time, you can salvage your dungeon, this returns the heart to you, but all rewards and heart xp it had build up are lost forever. You can enter your own dungeon and steal the heart yourself, but this still requires your dungeon to be beatable.

Higher level hearts let you build bigger and deadlier dungeons, and they have special passive abilities that they apply to the dungeon. Maybe they could level along different paths depending on how or what kinds of adventurers die in them? Different types of hearts would have different things you can place in their dungeons. Melee heart wouldn't have very many traps or ranged monsters, but it would have the strongest, fastest close-combat monsters around. Techno heart would have crazy puzzles and traps, but not as many monsters to fight. There would be a branching 'skill tree' style level path, making higher level dungeons much more unique. This kind of reminds me of warning forever, which is a great way to explain this if any of you played that game.

To stop hearts getting to levels so high no one can beat their dungeons, you can (or must?) turn then into items once they are past a certain level. The kind of heart it leveled into would determine the type of item, and the level would determine the power. You could enter a tough dungeon with lots of ranged enemies and arrow traps and think "Woah, this dungeon could give me a great weapon for my archer."

You can earn money from your dungeons, and from fighting in other dungeons even if you die. You could then spend this on low-level uninteresting equipment, one use items like potions, and fresh hearts.

You can adventure without building easily, turning the hearts you get into items or just sell or trade them away. You could also build without adventuring, as long as you can find adventurers to buy high-level hearts off of. This means you can just play one half if you find the other boring.


Woah this post went on for longer than I thought it would.

[TobiasW]

I like that very, very much. It sounds awesome to play, and it solves sooo many problems. And now it is more about good dungeon design: You want many to fail, but you actually WANT one to succeed at the end.

Only problems I still see:
- Harvesting of low hearts by simply going in much dungeons much lower-level than you are, just to get the heart.
- Puzzle levels that are very, very hard to solve for a player, but easily to the dungeon builder. Let it steam a bit, then enter it yourself.
- Multiple players being in a dungeon at the same time - only the first one wins anything, so at any time, your efforts might already be futile because somebody might be in front of you?

Any ideas for that, mokesmoe?

What do players deaths do to them? Experience loss according to the heart gain?
What would be rewards for having a heart stolen that lots of players died for?
How do new hearts come into the world, only with new players?


Oh, and I want to play that game! Like, now!
I'm kidding, I want to MAKE this game.

[mokesmoe]

- Harvesting of low hearts by simply going in much dungeons much lower-level than you are, just to get the heart.

I can't think of anything non-arbitrary to fix this, other than just having dungeons be selected automatically so you can't. Lower level dungeons wouldn't have any rewards other than the hearts, and like I mentioned, you can buy hearts from the store.

- Puzzle levels that are very, very hard to solve for a player, but easily to the dungeon builder. Let it steam a bit, then enter it yourself.

I can't think of a solution for this, although with a really easy dungeon building system I can't imagine there would be very complicated puzzles. We may have to rethink entering your own dungeon.

- Multiple players being in a dungeon at the same time - only the first one wins anything, so at any time, your efforts might already be futile because somebody might be in front of you?

I don't see this as a problem. It adds a sense of urgency, so people won't play super safe and more deaths will occur. You could even add a indicator showing how many other people are in the dungeon. Maybe even PvP inside the dungeon?
There are other rewards to dungeon crawling than the hearts too. you can gain XP and money from killing monsters and dealing with other dungeon specific stuff. Maybe you could also find 'uncommon' items from monsters. (Where common is generic store bought items and rare is heart items.) When the heart is taken by someone else there could be either a timed escape sequence (Maybe based of the time it took to take the heart in the first place?) or the dungeon stops spawning monsters and everything stops working so you have nothing to do but leave.

What do players deaths do to them? Experience loss according to the heart gain?

I feel like since death is mandatory to progress the game, it shouldn't be punished badly. Either that or make it so death isn't the only thing that powers the heart. I think I like that. Damage done to the adventurer would add xp, and so would using items. Death would add a large bonus. Although this could be farmed too easily by other players. Maybe it only applies once the adventurer dies or leaves alive?
Actually scratch that. When an adventurer leaves, his damage taken and items used go to the heart xp. If we couple this with a random dungeon selection system so you can't go back and get the heart you powered up, this means you don't want to leave unless you have to. If there is a steep penalty for dying, then means leaving is still better than dying.
I think deaths should make you lose all your usable items, but not your equipment. This would only include items you take with you; you would have a separate outside item storage. You could never lose hearts, because you can't take them with you into a dungeon. You would also pay a 'rescue fee' based on the dungeon level that gets added to the dungeon's creator's rewards.

What would be rewards for having a heart stolen that lots of players died for?

You would get personal XP and some cash based on the hearts built up XP from that dungeon. You would also get money and items from dead adventurers.
Also, since you can buy hearts, I think there should be a limit on how many dungeons you can have. The limit would increase with your level. This means another reward would be a free slot, and if your dungeon is too hard, you're more likely to salvage the heart to free up space. This means that there are less bad dungeons for players to run into.

How do new hearts come into the world, only with new players?

I mentioned this in my other post, but it was only two words so you must have missed it.
You can buy them in the shop. I think you could buy higher level hearts in the shop for a higher price, but they wouldn't have all the special effects and level paths naturally grown hearts wold have. Kind of like Pokemon. Hearts in general would be relativity cheap so they become a viable alternative despite the downsides, otherwise the world would run out of hearts.

Oh, and I want to play that game! Like, now!
I'm kidding, I want to MAKE this game.

That's the idea.

[TobiasW]

- Harvesting of low hearts by simply going in much dungeons much lower-level than you are, just to get the heart.

I can't think of anything non-arbitrary to fix this, other than just having dungeons be selected automatically so you can't. Lower level dungeons wouldn't have any rewards other than the hearts, and like I mentioned, you can buy hearts from the store.

Automatically/randomly? That makes me think a bit about a roguelike actually :D
Although I kind of would've liked to be able to tell a friend about that wicked-hard dungeon I just found, so he can have a try in it with his ultra-high goblin necromancer.

And sorry, yes, I missed that bit about buying hearts at the shop.

We may have to rethink entering your own dungeon.

If I cannot enter my own dungeon, I will make an alt for that. Or ask a friend.

[..Multiple players being in a dungeon at the same time..]

I don't see this as a problem. It adds a sense of urgency, so people won't play super safe and more deaths will occur. You could even add a indicator showing how many other people are in the dungeon. Maybe even PvP inside the dungeon?

You're right, kind of. Though it is a bit like a race where other people have started a few minutes before you arrive, isn't it?

It could be really fun if when you have the heart you really would need to escape by foot - and thereby meeting all the other players which you just deprived of the heart. The heart that you are, by the way, carrying. And which you might drop if you die. Hmmmm

I feel like since death is mandatory to progress the game, it shouldn't be punished badly. Either that or make it so death isn't the only thing that powers the heart. I think I like that. Damage done to the adventurer would add xp, and so would using items. Death would add a large bonus. Although this could be farmed too easily by other players. Maybe it only applies once the adventurer dies or leaves alive?
Actually scratch that. When an adventurer leaves, his damage taken and items used go to the heart xp. If we couple this with a random dungeon selection system so you can't go back and get the heart you powered up, this means you don't want to leave unless you have to. If there is a steep penalty for dying, then means leaving is still better than dying.

Yep, the farming was what I thought about.
The random selection might work, though my goblin-necromancer-friend and I will be pretty sad about it. Also, how would it filter the dungeons? By dungeon heart level? Farming would still be easy when there aren't much dungeons at my level, though I guess we can neglect that?


The limited dungeon-slots idea sounds good to me.
Maybe you can have other dungeons that just aren't active? Maybe a waiting queue? I mean it would be really a pity if I have designed awesome high-level dungeon, and there are just not enough high-level players around at the moment - and now I want a free slot, but don't want to destroy it.

[baconman]

It could be really fun if when you have the heart you really would need to escape by foot - and thereby meeting all the other players which you just deprived of the heart. The heart that you are, by the way, carrying. And which you might drop if you die. Hmmmm

And then you just get a multi-player deathmatch game, as opposed to the dungeon-exploration concept that this game is fundamentally based on. However, if you can acquire another "heart" and LEAVE the dungeon before the other player finds their way out...

[mokesmoe]

I think we can have the main selection be random, but still have people be able to select dungeons manually from recently played or friends' dungeons or recommendations. The auto-assigner would try to distribute people evenly, but if the game detects farming (through whatever means) it could bias towards that dungeon. If you try to farm or go really slowly, you're more likely to run into another adventurer who could make your attempts futile.

I'm not sure what to do about competing adventurers, though. PvP doesn't sound like the best answer.

[Droqen]

It depends on how Dungeon Heart Spelunking works, but

I think if it goes the way I'd thought about it originally (i.e. most players want to go through the dungeon the right way; but a few will 'break the rules' so to speak to hunt the Heart) then:

It'd be awesome, to add just another layer of challenge, to switch everyone in the dungeon over to PvP mode the moment someone steals the heart. Chaos erupts, multiple players are joined under a common goal (defeat the thief!), and one player is presented with yet another challenge along the way to Dungeon Heart Thievery.



Also, I don't really like the idea of randomly choosing a dungeon.

I definitely see the appeal, though, and have to think about it some more -- but (originally) I thought it'd be cool if you could visit a dungeon multiple times to discover its secrets before deciding to make a break for the heart.

It could be equally compelling (or even more so) but in a completely different way if you only had one run through any given dungeon!

Possibly if you like a dungeon you can share it with your friends, maybe even with a little HINT/NOTE sharing your secrets with them (solutions, shortcuts, etc.)

[mokesmoe]

I think having a random selection normally but not having it as the only way to select dungeons is probably the best. With a controlled dungeon assigner (not completely random) you can make sure dungeons don't get left alone or over-saturated.

Maybe dying in a dungeon would mean you can't go back, but if you escape safely (without the heart) you could. If you die, it would still appear grayed out in your recently played so you could send it to friends if you wanted to.

Maybe instead of selling items, you would place them in your dungeon as treasure and you would earn a cash reward when someone stole it. (like with hearts but on a smaller scale) It would need something that stops people from putting then right at the entrance though. (other than the want for a good dungeon.) Some scale based off the difficulty of getting it maybe.

[TobiasW]

Maybe instead of selling items, you would place them in your dungeon as treasure and you would earn a cash reward when someone stole it. (like with hearts but on a smaller scale) It would need something that stops people from putting then right at the entrance though. (other than the want for a good dungeon.) Some scale based off the difficulty of getting it maybe.

Like some kind of insurance? "Look, I even build a dungeon to ward off the thieves! I want my insurance money!" :D

Maybe make it that that the insurance company will only give you some kind of "full amount" if the item survives x hours or something, and scales down from there up to 0? Like "Well, it probably wasn't a very secure dungeon if the first adventurer could take it, right?"

[Kegluneq]

Personally, I like the PvP as the final obstacle thing, it's definitely epic for the escapee.

But I'm worried that such a system would make it so that the original successful raider almost never gets away with the heart. Instead, some other guy who hasn't even done half the dungeon gets away with it just because he can defeat whatever poor, weakened and battered guy had it last.

In order to make things more fair, the heart carrier should get a major power boost, perhaps scaled to how many others are currently in the dungeon.
You could explain it by saying the heart, which was originally running the dungeon with its magics, is giving its power to the player, since being unplugged from the dungeon it had to find somewhere to put all the energy.

The juggernaut effect may have to weaken a little (or a lot?) for every player transfer to keep things interesting.

Like some kind of insurance? "Look, I even build a dungeon to ward of the thieves! I want my insurance money!" :D

Maybe just that the insurance company will only give you some kind of "full amount" if the item survives x hours or something, and scales down from there up to 0? Like "Well, it probably wasn't a very secure dungeon if the first adventurer could take it, right?"

I was thinking the same thing! Only in my mind, the insurance company simply gets ripped off.

[Droqen]

Well - the way the dungeon heart works, players who defeat the heart thief could just be rewarded handsomely by the dungeon's owner, rather than with the heart!

The heart changing hands would be pretty cool, but would be a sad day for the owner of the dungeon.

(Of course, there should be a way for players to steal the heart too especially if they were just about to do so)

[Chromanoid]

How about time slots for entering a dungeon. A limited count of players can enter a dungeon per time slot. This could lead to a gameplay like Dungeon Party.

Be careful to make the game not too complex, because this might dilute the core gameplay.

[Xion]

I sort of like the idea that you're always only against the dungeon and not other players. The whole build a dungeon and have players conquer it seems like a much more interesting pvp dynamic than straight on conflict, and if your dungeon isn't boss enough to keep players from getting the heart, why should you depend on other players to do it for you when someone has bested all your shits and is on their way out?

It might be interesting, however, for other players to, not directly confront the fleeing player, but to be able to actively influence the dungeon to make their escape much harder. Possessing traps and monsters, for example, or causing more monsters to spawn or something.

I mean imagine, on your way in you're confronted by monsters that follow a predictable, learnable AI routine. On your way out you're confronted by the same monsters but who now possess the ingenuity and unpredictability of a human. Some traps that ran on a cyclic timer before might now try to fake you out by feigning triggering, and then trigger for real once they've thrown you out of your groove. The fleeing player will be able to see possessed enemies and objects by an unnatural glow, perhaps, and maybe the ghost players could chat with one another to coordinate a gauntlet to put the adventurer through.

This way, you're still essentially going against the dungeon and can only face the traps and foes the dungeon maker provided, but other players will still have the opportunity to stop you so that they can later claim the heart for themselves. You won't have to worry about running into another player with a +39 Jumblescythe of Virtual Immortality, but you will have to worry about that goblin centurion and his army you evaded before being a lot smarter.

Maybe there would be a reward to the player whose possessed the thing that dealt the killing blow? Or a reward was distributed according to how much damage they did?


say 7 players are in the dungeon when one of them gets the heart
"A PLAYER HAS OBTAINED THE HEART"
Everyone else turns into ghosts and can float around to possess things. If there were another player who was close to the heart when the thief took it, they would have the advantage of being able to stop the adventurer much sooner than others, or doing more damage and wearing them down over the course of their entire escape. On the other hand, if the other 6 players are near the beginning, they'll only have a small space in which to inflict damage before he reaches the exit.

Maybe there can be certain equipment that players can obtain specifically for use in these situations - like an amulet that lets any creature they possess breathe fire or something. It would work if they had an ability that allowed them to possess creatures, but also in the event of another hero getting to the heart.

If they stopped the heart bearer, maybe they'd re-enter their bodies and be able to continue the dungeon in separate sessions again until someone else reached the heart?

[Chromanoid]

I sort of like the idea that you're always only against the dungeon and not other players.

Yeah I think you are right.

As a conclusion, if I would create such a game I would probably do it like this:
Only one hero per dungeon;
there is a small world map with "symbolic" dungeon locations;
each location has special requirements for keepers to get their dungeon into the location's dungeon list (e.g. place at least 5 ice props in your dungeon to get listed at the level 1-5 ice cave location);
each keeper can build as much dungeons as he wants, but he needs resources for space/props/monsters etc.;
storage quests are bound to locations;
a hero accepts a quest and then has to enter a location for accomplishing it -> quests bring heros and dungeons together;
when a hero enters a location he enters randomly a matching dungeon with the right location/quest combination;
heros can choose to enter the last dungeon they vistied before dying (until they finish the quest) unless it is currently challenged by someone else;
dungeon building is made in a way that making impossible dungeons is impossible;
i would drop the dungeon heart idea;
exploring dungeons is rogue like/round based (with a max. round time+count);
while a hero explores the dungeon editing is impossible;
traps need to be rearmed via click;
skeletons remain in the dungeon unless clicked;
after dying a hero has to rest for a certain amount of time;
the keeper buys monsters in a "monster shop" (sometimes the monsters need special props or items);
heros can only accept quests that are in their level range (e.g. there is a lvl 20-30 quest "rescue the princess" or a lvl 1-5 quest "find the mayor's lost boot");
keepers and heros can accept multiple quests;
heros can only take a limited amount of items per dungeon run;
heros may take gold or special props instead of quest items;
heros can't take quest items of quests they didn't accept;
fallback npc dungeon's/heros to level up w/o real players (quests with npcs give far less rewards);
when a storage quest expires unattempted an appropriate npc horde challenges the keeper;
quests can not be canceled (only due to level advancement);
possibly hero team quests as keepers' endgame;