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[Samtagonist]

I heard Jon Blow is making a new game with a soundtrack by Death Cab For Cutie. Hopefully that will restore credibility to indie games and show they haven't sold out to the mnstrm.

J-Blows already made a game with an indie band soundtrack.  The game was Braid, and the indie band was Ghost Mice.  Seriously, Ghost Mice sounds like someone is singing over a level theme from Braid.

[phubans]

Hmm, maybe we should define what is indie? As if the last 100 times wouldn't be enough

WHAT IS AN INDIE?

A MISERABLE LITTLE PILE OF CAVE STORY RIP-OFFS.

[eiyukabe]

I always thought that with the way "indie" is being used now, it would be better to use the word "sincere". You know, sincerely appreciating the artform, sincerely trying to get better at it instead of just riding market bubbles, sincerely wanting to bring joy to those that play your game, sincerely trying to succeed through quality and not psychology tricks, stealing other game ideas, or strong-armed marketing tactics. I mean, before the IPO, you could argue that Zynga was "Independent", but hopefully no one would argue they were "indie".

But "Sincere Game Development" doesn't have that ring to it :/

[Gimym TILBERT]

You mean like bungie, platinum, nintendo and blizzard?

[Derek]

At least in terms of what I try to cover on TIGSource, small teams and independence are the two requisites.

[ETG]

My compile script deletes all the files at the end of it's run because for just one person to play it, even to playtest, is too mainstream.

[moi]

Aha dude, your game can be played ?
What is this, the third world?

[Fission Mailed]

I ate a slice of pie before it was cool. Now my tongue is burnt.

[Starflier]

I was a hipster before they were cool...

[eld]

I thought being indie was about making games ironically.

[phubans]

If by ironically you mean crashing the party at Derek's place just to piss on his toilet seat, all the while making a game called "Hyper Shitters 3" that involves defecating on the faces of famous pin-up girls from the 1950s after you've killed them, then yes.

[C.A. Sinner]

I heard Jon Blow is making a new game with a soundtrack by Death Cab For Cutie. Hopefully that will restore credibility to indie games and show they haven't sold out to the mnstrm.

J-Blows already made a game with an indie band soundtrack.  The game was Braid, and the indie band was Ghost Mice.  Seriously, Ghost Mice sounds like someone is singing over a level theme from Braid.

Did you know Braid's soundtrack is licensed? It's from a number of different artists too.

[ortoslon]

<thread hijack>
SO is an acronym for Superior Over

[Paul Eres]

You mean like bungie, platinum, nintendo and blizzard?

the developers of those games do not own the IP, only the owners of the company do

the primary thing for me is that the developers of the game own the IP, not guys in suits

think about it this way: who owns the IP of portal: gabe newell or the actual people who made the game? who owns starcraft 2: the developers or the shareholders? since in both of those cases it's not the people who made the game who own the game, can you really call the developers who work at valve or blizzard independent in the same way that someone who owns their own IP is?

so the basic criterion for me is something this: if you are being paid a salary to make a game (in exchange for the entity paying you the salary owning the rights to the game, not you), it's not indie. if you're going to be paid in royalties after the game is done, and are not being paid a salary, and you still own the rights to whatever parts of the game you made, then it's indie

or another rule of thumb way to look at it is: indie is when developers profit from *sales*, non-indie is when developers profit from *salary*

[eiyukabe]

You mean like bungie, platinum, nintendo and blizzard?

the developers of those games do not own the IP, only the owners of the company do

the primary thing for me is that the developers of the game own the IP, not guys in suits

think about it this way: who owns the IP of portal: gabe newell or the actual people who made the game? who owns starcraft 2: the developers or the shareholders? since in both of those cases it's not the people who made the game who own the game, can you really call the developers who work at valve or blizzard independent in the same way that someone who owns their own IP is?

so the basic criterion for me is something this: if you are being paid a salary to make a game (in exchange for the entity paying you the salary owning the rights to the game, not you), it's not indie. if you're going to be paid in royalties after the game is done, and are not being paid a salary, and you still own the rights to whatever parts of the game you made, then it's indie

or another rule of thumb way to look at it is: indie is when developers profit from *sales*, non-indie is when developers profit from *salary*

This is an interesting way of looking at it. I like it, but...

Let's say a company of 20 individuals who are friends and friends of friends start a game studio and they all get paid royalties if the game ships and there are no producers or CEOs or lawyers. I think this is indie by your model. But what if they hire an intern or something to help with some art, and this intern gets paid hourly or a salary and sees no royalties. Clearly this intern is not doing indie development, but is the studio itself no longer indie? What if you are working on an indie game and purchase some music licenses for a flat fee, is your game no longer indie because one of the creative contributors (the musician) is not getting royalties? I wonder where the line is. It's obvious if a studio is publicly owned or publisher owned, but I still feel that Valve is indie because developers there have a lot of freedom for what they work on and when it's done. Though I don't know who "owns" what at Valve.

I know you were just offering a heuristic, but I find it enlightening to expand upon heuristics.