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[Ardbob]

Update: I now have a dedicated programmer, a dedicated artist and two secondary artists. If anyone else is interested in the project you can still feel free to email me at [zombiequest at ardbob dot com]. I won't be checking this topic anymore though.

READ BEFORE POSTING: If you are not interested in the project itself or interested in joining my team, then please do not bother posting. I appreciate your "advice". I know this project is big and many have underestimated such things long before me, blah blah blah. Constructive criticism is well and all, but does not belong in a thread meant to find team members. Thanks.

Game: Zombie Quest! (working title)
Zombie Quest is a comedic turn-based role-playing game planned for PC. Although it will be in the style of old Super Nintendo games, it will contain much cleaner graphics along with a plethora of modern and new concepts. This will create the perfect mix of modern, unique and nostalgic gameplay.

Currently, I am shooting for an 18-24 hour main storyline, with plenty of secrets, easter eggs and side-quests to extended play time. If you were to become part of the team helping to create this game you would be able to do so in your free time if necessary, but we would hold weekly skype meetings to discuss progress, exchange work and assign work to each other.

2D Artist:
FOUND

Programmer:
FOUND

Payment:
You would be paid a percentage of the game's profits when sold. The details of this are not set in stone, but at the moment I am thinking 20-25% of the game's profits will be yours. We will work out the details and exact amounts before you do any work, of course. NOTE: This is in the unpaid section for a reason... this is for FUN AND EXPERIENCE. If you're looking for money, then this is not for you.
If you're interested in helping me out, then please send me an email or message!
Email: ardrick at gmail

[Destral]

"Designer/Programmer" is somewhat vague. Can you describe the tasks this Designer/Programmer would be in charge of? What kind of project length are you looking at? Is the game going to be a shortish indie project (6-10 hours to play through) or are you thinking of something longer.

A little more information might spark a little more interest in the project.

[Ardbob]

"Designer/Programmer" is somewhat vague. Can you describe the tasks this Designer/Programmer would be in charge of? What kind of project length are you looking at? Is the game going to be a shortish indie project (6-10 hours to play through) or are you thinking of something longer.

A little more information might spark a little more interest in the project.

Thank you for your advice. I have updated the thread's title and OP. Also, by designer I actually meant artist. I have corrected myself on that also.

[GZ]

Hey.

I don't want you to take this the wrong way, but there are severe problems with the plan you've outlined. I don't post very often because I'm busy with my own game work, but understand that I simply wouldn't post at all if I didn't care about you surviving as an indie developer.

Let's start here: Can you name a single Indie RPG that's 18-24 hours? If you can name such a game, was it any good? If it was good, how many people did it take to make? How much time did it take them to make? If you still don't get where I'm going with this line of questioning, I'll spell it out: It's extremely difficult to produce such a game with the resources you are outlining, let alone a first time dev team. It's possible with enough time, experience and qualified people, but you will not get experience without first making other games, and you will not get qualified people unless you are experienced. Time is a whole other problem in itself.

That said, let's put aside the challenges of making such a game, I'll just give you the benefit of the doubt and say you are capable of doing it. So now let's say I'm a programmer or artist. Why should I work on your game? I get a minority share, I will be putting as many if not more work hours into the game, and in return I get to be a part of your team, of which you yourself have no track record. Why shouldn't I work on my own games? What do you bring to the table? A naive or inexperienced developer might buy into what you're selling, but any developer of value needs to believe in you if they're going to work with you. So you need a track record, or at the very least some kind of resume showing you have skills relevant to game design.

Alright, I'll once again give you the benefit of the doubt and say you do have a compelling enough reason to get people to join your project. Tell me then, what exactly is your plan to sell the game? Do you know anything about digital distribution? What vendors / distributors will you target? What kind of marketing strategy do you have in mind? Realize that failure to produce meaningful results means no one gets paid for all their hard work.

If you can sincerely say you can address every single problem I've outlined, then completely ignore what I've just said. If you can't answer even one of those questions, then you absolutely must reconsider what you're proposing here if you want to get any kind of results as an indie developer.

[starsrift]

Codewise, this doesn't appear hard, conceptually speaking, though it's a fair bit of typing. I'm not a fan of 2D, but what the hell, color me somewhat interested, something I could toss out, and I could probably use the practice. It would come second to my own work, understand, but I can code as fast as one artist hands over assets unless they are also ridiculously fast.

What's the scope of this project? I imagine that an artist wants to know this even more than a coder would. And I imagine it must be small since you're only looking for one artist. How many player characters, NPC's, and enemies? How many areas?

Are you bringing the music and sound engineering to the table in addition to the design and script?

[Ardbob]

Let's start here: Can you name a single Indie RPG that's 18-24 hours? If you can name such a game, was it any good? If it was good, how many people did it take to make? How much time did it take them to make? If you still don't get where I'm going with this line of questioning, I'll spell it out: It's extremely difficult to produce such a game with the resources you are outlining, let alone a first time dev team. It's possible with enough time, experience and qualified people, but you will not get experience without first making other games, and you will not get qualified people unless you are experienced. Time is a whole other problem in itself.

I said I was shooting for that many hours, not that it would end up being that many. Aim high! However, I don't think that's nearly as hard to tackle as you feel it is. Yes, for a puzzle game, any 3D game, etc that would extremely time consuming and difficult. I'm talking about a 2D game, which is a thousand times easier to draw. As for writing, I can easily complete a storyline near that length. This is a large project, but I never said it was small or easy. My plan is to have this made over 9-12 months in our free time.

That said, let's put aside the challenges of making such a game, I'll just give you the benefit of the doubt and say you are capable of doing it. So now let's say I'm a programmer or artist. Why should I work on your game? I get a minority share, I will be putting as many if not more work hours into the game, and in return I get to be a part of your team, of which you yourself have no track record. Why shouldn't I work on my own games? What do you bring to the table? A naive or inexperienced developer might buy into what you're selling, but any developer of value needs to believe in you if they're going to work with you. So you need a track record, or at the very least some kind of resume showing you have skills relevant to game design.

I'm not asking anyone to quit their job or choose this project over paid projects. I'm looking for people looking for a fun, creative and unique project to add to their portfolio that would likely get them a little money as a perk. If I was aiming specifically for financial success I would be doing fundraising at the moment and paying as we go. As for why someone should join my team and work on this project, it would be the game itself. Yes, I haven't stated much about the game itself, but I'm not comfortable yet posting the game's raw details to the entire forums. However, if anyone sees this thread and is interested in a 2D RPG combining nostalgic style with modern concepts and unique systems, then they would probably talk to me and I would give them more information. Anyone is free to say no. That is up to them. I have to track record or resume. This is my first project, but I've already found a few people interested in my project, so that doesn't seem to matter too much when you have interesting concepts to get their attention. (Also, ~20% wouldn't be a minority share. I myself would only be receiving around 20%, as would the programmer, artist and possibly other team members. As I said it is not a set number, because I am not sure how many team members I will have.)

Alright, I'll once again give you the benefit of the doubt and say you do have a compelling enough reason to get people to join your project. Tell me then, what exactly is your plan to sell the game? Do you know anything about digital distribution? What vendors / distributors will you target? What kind of marketing strategy do you have in mind? Realize that failure to produce meaningful results means no one gets paid for all their hard work.

Yes, game sales are very important to those involved in the project, including myself. At the moment however I'm focusing entirely on building a team and writing the project and designing it's mechanics and features. At the moment however all I know is Steam. I already plan to look further into vendors as the project progresses.

All that aside, I'm confident I can make this game.

Codewise, this doesn't appear hard, conceptually speaking, though it's a fair bit of typing. I'm not a fan of 2D, but what the hell, color me somewhat interested, something I could toss out, and I could probably use the practice. It would come second to my own work, understand, but I can code as fast as one artist hands over assets unless they are also ridiculously fast.

What's the scope of this project? I imagine that an artist wants to know this even more than a coder would. And I imagine it must be small since you're only looking for one artist. How many player characters, NPC's, and enemies? How many areas?

Are you bringing the music and sound engineering to the table in addition to the design and script?

The scope would be large, but manageable. I am still creating the framework for the game so I can't give exact numbers, but about 35 unique monsters, maybe 40 unique NPC's (many of which be barely different, such as unimportant townspeople), four player characters. I definitely can't say how many areas yet though.

As for sound, I have already found a composer very interested in the project. I'm waiting to hear a sample for a battle theme he is making. If it fits, then he's willing to complete an 30+ soundtrack for the game.

[Amirai]

From personal experience and the personal experiences of many others who have tried to make an RPG: They are way...

way

WAY

...harder to make than they seem. They're actually probably the second hardest type of game to make with only an MMO beating them, and that difficultly is doubled when its your first game.

Please don't disregard what I'm telling you - making a 20 hour RPG as your first game without RPG maker is really something you shouldn't attempt. I don't want to discourage you from making this game at all at some point when you have more experience, as there are people who have managed to make RPGs on their own (while RPG maker makes it a lot easier, there are people who have made them without it), but you should make something small first.

By the way, the current development time on my 'mini' RPG I'm currently working on that's my first completed game, made without RPG maker? Two and a half years so far.

Seriously. RPGs are INSANE.

[GZ]

I said I was shooting for that many hours, not that it would end up being that many. Aim high! However, I don't think that's nearly as hard to tackle as you feel it is.

What is your reasoning based on? You've admitted yourself you have no experience and no track record. By that same logic, I can say it's easy to climb a mountain even though I've never done it before.

Yes, for a puzzle game, any 3D game, etc that would extremely time consuming and difficult. I'm talking about a 2D game, which is a thousand times easier to draw. As for writing, I can easily complete a storyline near that length. This is a large project, but I never said it was small or easy. My plan is to have this made over 9-12 months in our free time.

Let's break down the numbers. Say you and every team member spends a year on the game using free time. Let's say free time means 2 days a week on average (the weekends). That's 104 days, or just over three months. Do you really believe any programmer or artist can deliver the results you are looking for in just 3 months of work? If such people exist, I imagine they're already working at a commercial game company being paid $100,000+ a year.

I'm not asking anyone to quit their job or choose this project over paid projects. I'm looking for people looking for a fun, creative and unique project to add to their portfolio that would likely get them a little money as a perk. If I was aiming specifically for financial success I would be doing fundraising at the moment and paying as we go. As for why someone should join my team and work on this project, it would be the game itself. Yes, I haven't stated much about the game itself, but I'm not comfortable yet posting the game's raw details to the entire forums. However, if anyone sees this thread and is interested in a 2D RPG combining nostalgic style with modern concepts and unique systems, then they would probably talk to me and I would give them more information. Anyone is free to say no. That is up to them. I have to track record or resume.

Which means there are no compelling reason to join your project. You have no demo, no screen shots or concept art, no info, no experience, and no reason for them to join beyond a vague idea. Anyone interested in the project is either inexperienced or simply wants to collaborate and isn't taking it very seriously. It's not possible to run a team of inexperienced people, and if they have some experience but aren't taking it seriously you are just as worse off.

This is my first project, but I've already found a few people interested in my project, so that doesn't seem to matter too much when you have interesting concepts to get their attention.

You may have skipped over this line in my original post:

A naive or inexperienced developer might buy into what you're selling, but any developer of value needs to believe in you if they're going to work with you.

(Also, ~20% wouldn't be a minority share. I myself would only be receiving around 20%, as would the programmer, artist and possibly other team members. As I said it is not a set number, because I am not sure how many team members I will have.)

Have you worked on a team before? What qualifies you to lead a team? What happens if there's a disagreement on the direction of the game halfway through? What if your programmer vanishes after a few months? What if the artist quits the project and takes his work with him? What if you find out your composer actually plagiarised the music tracks for the game? If you think any of these things I've outlined are outlandish, you are in for a surprise.

Yes, game sales are very important to those involved in the project, including myself. At the moment however I'm focusing entirely on building a team and writing the project and designing it's mechanics and features. At the moment however all I know is Steam. I already plan to look further into vendors as the project progresses.

Do you know anything about Steam? Even very talented indies with countless years of experience have difficulty getting on Steam. You are going to have a lot of people pissed off at you if you don't deliver on you end of the bargain. Saying you are focused on building the team is not a good enough answer if a team member was counting on royalties to help pay their rent.

All that aside, I'm confident I can make this game.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to make an RPG, but the scope you've outlined is a lot for even experienced developers. There's nothing wrong with working on a team, but leading a team with no experience and requiring such a large team to make the project work is extremely unrealistic. There's nothing wrong with selling a game, but developers selling their first game is rare because the game is no where near good enough to be sold.

There's really not much more I can say beyond what has been said already. If you feel there is no path for you other than an extremely ambitious RPG requiring several other talented people working in harmony for a year, then you will probably learn about game development the hard way.

[Miguelito]

 OK, feedback is getting really harsh here. There's nothing wrong with a healthy dose of reality, but too much is just heart-breaking (not that I don't agree with the gist of things).

 Let me make you a constructive proposal: How about instead of doing a 20+ hour story, you could try something on a smaller scale, time-wise and locally.

 Imagine a Zombie RPG set in a single shelter or house. Everything else has already been ravaged by the undead, and you only have that building to play in.
 Now instead of combat, enemies roam the map and just kill you. That's right - no combat screen, just dead. And no means of killing them either.
 And finally, just about five people, and one simple goal. Say, you're doomed right from the start, but there's this thing the protagonist has always been meaning to do in their life. Or maybe a murder mystery among the survivors. Something that can be played through in about two to three hours.

 This is probably not at all what you intended to do, but I'm pretty sure this would be possible and doable with two to three talented individuals (one mediocre artist, one good coder and one excellent writer).

 Just trying to be a bit constructive here.

 By the way, what are your functions in this? Writing, or coding too?

[Ardbob]

Most of your points, GZ, seem to be complaining that I am an amateur and there is absolutely no reason to ever join my team. I welcome your intentions of trying to steer me in the right direction, but you are being pretty harsh. Yes, this is a large project, we've covered that. However, I've already found several people (who are more than decent at what they do) that are interested in working with my project. Yes, this might take longer than a year. Who knows how long it will take, but if it's our free time and we're having fun making the game, then there isn't really any problem with that, and so far many people seem fine with that. As long as my idea is fun. If you personally are not interested in this project, then that's fine. Others are.

OK, feedback is getting really harsh here. There's nothing wrong with a healthy dose of reality, but too much is just heart-breaking (not that I don't agree with the gist of things).

 Let me make you a constructive proposal: How about instead of doing a 20+ hour story, you could try something on a smaller scale, time-wise and locally.

 Imagine a Zombie RPG set in a single shelter or house. Everything else has already been ravaged by the undead, and you only have that building to play in.
 Now instead of combat, enemies roam the map and just kill you. That's right - no combat screen, just dead. And no means of killing them either.
 And finally, just about five people, and one simple goal. Say, you're doomed right from the start, but there's this thing the protagonist has always been meaning to do in their life. Or maybe a murder mystery among the survivors. Something that can be played through in about two to three hours.

 This is probably not at all what you intended to do, but I'm pretty sure this would be possible and doable with two to three talented individuals (one mediocre artist, one good coder and one excellent writer).

 Just trying to be a bit constructive here.

 By the way, what are your functions in this? Writing, or coding too?

Thank you very much, for your advice and constructiveness. I appreciate it.
Unfortunately that's not the storyline I'm working with. In fact, you're not in a cliche zombie game. You're playing the zombie (like stubbs the zombie, yes). That would be more easier and quicker to make. In fact, it would only require a handful of events and a dozen sprites and few maps. That's not what I'm looking for though. I came up with an idea for a game (a very specific idea), and if I hold back then this idea won't be what it should be. I really want to make this game, not a mediocre version of it. I do agree however after some thought that maybe 20 hours is a bit much. It may only be around 12-15 hour storyline. Honestly though, I believe I can manage this. Remember, this is an RPG and in my opinion story is important in an RPG. Those hours include conversation (of which there are choices), travel across the world map (on which battles ensue), getting through obstacles, solving puzzles, etc.

EDIT:
Oh, and I am a writer. I do not code at all, but I am designing what battle system, menu system, skill system, level system, etc that we use and how exactly it functions. The programmers job would be to implement all of that and make it completely functional. Of course, this is my first game and I am welcome to help. While working with my team we will have weekly skype meeting to discus everything and compare work. During this time, all of us are free to make suggestions concerning each others' work, including my design ideas.

[Ardbob]

By the way, the current development time on my 'mini' RPG I'm currently working on that's my first completed game, made without RPG maker? Two and a half years so far.

Seriously. RPGs are INSANE.

I know nothing about coding and am terrible at art, so previously I had fooled around with RPG Maker. I completed about 20% of an RPG in about two weeks just in my free time. It was complete with full events, full maps, NPC's, enemies in every area I had made so far, story, music, etc. In the end I decided that if I was going to make a video game, I wanted it to be completely original, so I trashed it. Yes, this isn't RPG Maker. Yes, this will take much longer, but I'm expecting that. And what I meant by RPG's taking not as much time for a longer storyline is this... say you make a side scrolling platformer. Each level ends up taking about ten minutes to complete play through. If you wanted that to be 20 hours you'd have to design an unbelievable amount of levels. In an RPG, there is a lot of story, time spend in menus, time spent strategizing, time in turn-based battles, time travelling, etc. Yes, the content is much more in depth, but it takes much longer to complete than a platformer would.

[Amirai]

Honestly though, I believe I can manage this. Remember, this is an RPG and in my opinion story is important in an RPG. Those hours include conversation (of which there are choices), travel across the world map (on which battles ensue), getting through obstacles, solving puzzles, etc.

I really thought I could make my RPG in a year.  The same lesson I have read many, many people mention they have learned after trying to make an RPG is that they take way longer than expected to make.  The reason you and many others have underestimated the task is because you don't know what it actually entails.

Just because you think an RPG won't be that hard to make doesn't mean it's actually not hard to make.  Because you not only haven't made an RPG before, you haven't made any game at all before, you do not have the experience required to accurately esimate how difficult it is to make an RPG.  You should listen to those who have, and those who have say it's very hard and much more work than they expected.

You've said it yourself, you've never made one of these before.  That means you don't know the reality of trying to make one.  Please listen to those who have tried it before you - completing a game at all is difficult, and completing an RPG is much more so.

I don't want to be harsh, but it's better that you learn from the experiences of others first rather than try to tackle a task that's far more difficult than you realize, because you don't have the experience needed to know.

People putting a year into a game only to discover how much harder it is then they thought it was going to be is the type of thing that stops games from getting completed.

I know nothing about coding and am terrible at art, so previously I had fooled around with RPG Maker. I completed about 20% of an RPG in about two weeks just in my free time. It was complete with full events, full maps, NPC's, enemies in every area I had made so far, story, music, etc. In the end I decided that if I was going to make a video game, I wanted it to be completely original, so I trashed it. Yes, this isn't RPG Maker. Yes, this will take much longer, but I'm expecting that.

There is simply no comparison between using RPG maker and coding something from scratch.  None.  RPG maker does a TON of the work for you.

I understand your determination.  I understand how you think it will be easier than people tell you.  That's why I'm trying to tell you how much harder it is.  It was a difficult lesson to learn and I think it's better that you realize it now than after sinking a year into a project that turned out to be much more difficult than you expected it to be.

Feel free to ignore this advice if you want, but know that you're not the first person to underestimate the task.  It's very common.

If you're really going to still try to make this game, only do so if you're willing to spend at least three times the amount of time you expect to on it.  That's right, not one year - three years.  At least.  I'm not just saying that because it's an RPG either - most projects end up taking 2 to 3 times longer than people think they will.

Again, I'm not saying you should not make the game at all.  I'm simply saying you should get some practice on something easier and smaller first.  With the experience you gain, the game you originally wanted to make will be all the better for it!

[Ardbob]

Thank you for your advice and I do appreciate it, really. I understand you're trying to help me, but honestly I know it's a large project. That's why I am opening telling people it's a large project. If someone isn't up for a large, long project, then they aren't right for the team, simple as that. There are some people willing to put time and work in for a project that sounds interesting and fun enough to them.

Also, I know that it's going to be a lot harder than I'm saying it is, but do you expect me to say "You're right, this is going to be too hard" and give up? I'm going to learn as I go, adapt and get better and eventually finish this project.

[C]

Also, I know that it's going to be a lot harder than I'm saying it is, but do you expect me to say "You're right, this is going to be too hard" and give up? I'm going to learn as I go, adapt and get better and eventually finish this project.

the cookie crew misses you

and yes, you should, this is unrealistic to the nth.  humorous? sort of.  try do something some things much smaller.  design and program some things in GM maybe, or with Flixel/Flashpunk while you're writing the design doc for Zombie Quest.

[Ardbob]

Nice use of google? That's kinda creepy.

EDIT: And a little pointless...
May I point out that this thread is not titled: "Tell me how to make my game".
I made this thread for the SOLE purpose of finding team members. So far, this is somewhat successful and have found a few people (as I have through other methods as well). If you don't think I can accomplish this project, good for you, but I've heard enough criticism for now. So if you're not interested in joining my team, then I'm really not interested anymore help. Thank you though for some of your guys' well intentions.