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[sorceress]

There are many who are nostalgic about old computers. Many of those who experienced the 8 and 16-bit eras have fond memories of those early games. Those games had a cheerful and innocent feel to them that's strangely hard to mimic on modern technology.

Because of hardware limitations, graphics, sound and gameplay were all usually quite simple, but the games required precision controlling and precision timing to master, as there was little tolerance for human error.

Also, the objective of a game was not always obvious, so the player had to explore their options and experiment with different thing to work out what had to be done and how to do it. This possibly meant drawing a map, or learning the paths and positions where objects appear, and generally accumulating knowledge of the game so you could play it better.

The hardware also had a pleasant simplicity to it. Using it was a worry-free and cheerful experience. There was no fear of hard disk corruption because there were no hard disks. There was no fear that the operating system would break or become damaged, because it was stored in invulnerable ROM chips.  The hardware didn't need drivers so there was no incompatibility or instability. There were no security issues or permissions systems to plague the user. Rebooting was painless ~ something you'd not think twice about. The user interfaces were cute in their simplicity, and compliant in action. They were not goliaths you had to wrestle with to make them do what you want.

From a development point of view, everybodies computer had the same hardware configuration (except for RAM capacity), so if a program worked on one machine it would work on them all. This made software predictable and arguably easier to engineer. I believe that a large part of the reason why older systems had strong scenes/communities growing around them is because of this fact.

Nowadays, users have a wide variety of hardware configurations and operating system versions. This splits the community since not all people can run the same programs, and everyone feels a never-ending need to upgrade one component or another.

Even though computers have come a long way since the 1980s, I do feel that some qualities have been lost, which you can probably tell from my post.

If I ever had the money, I would love to design a new computer system & OS that attempts to capture the feelings of those older systems, while still being relatively powerful by today's standards.

So I would like to know, what features do you feel were important parts of what made 8 & 16-bit systems pleasurable, that could be woven into modern computer design?

[Bursar]

If I ever had the money, I would love to design a new computer system & OS that attempts to capture the feelings of those older systems, while still being relatively powerful by today's standards.

Congratulations. You've invented the modern day games console.

The hardware also had a pleasant simplicity to it.

Hardware designs have moved on, but that's because people want more (of everything). More graphics, more sound, more AI, more frames per second. If you want something that can at least compete with existing consoles/PCs, you'll need to use modern hardware.

Using it was a worry-free and cheerful experience.

Not so sure about that. The consoles from that era, sure. But the computers? They still had their moments!

There was no fear of hard disk corruption because there were no hard disks.

But today you need them really. Or you need stacks of really expensive RAM/ROM in order to store your downloadable titles. Removable media is a possibility, but doesn't get you away from file corruption.

[/quote] There was no fear that the operating system would break or become damaged, because it was stored in invulnerable ROM chips.[/quote]
Just like todays consoles...

The hardware didn't need drivers so there was no incompatibility or instability.

Just like todays consoles...

There were no security issues or permissions systems to plague the user.

Not the user, no. But on the computer front software piracy was rampant. Fancy going back to cartridges instead to try and get around that?

[/quote]Rebooting was painless ~ something you'd not think twice about.[/quote]
Just like todays consoles...

The user interfaces were cute in their simplicity, and compliant in action. They were not goliaths you had to wrestle with to make them do what you want.

Just like todays consoles...

From a development point of view, everybodies computer had the same hardware configuration

Just like todays consoles...

Don't get me wrong, I love me some retro gaming (proper old games, not modern games created in a retro style), but I love playing them on current hardware. Would I dig out my old Spectrum or Commodore 64 and sit through 10 minutes of loading screens (if I still had them)? No I wouldn't. I'd fire up an emulator and be playing games in a couple of seconds.

Ofcourse when I was a kid, waiting those 10 mins was all part of the charm. I could spend all day playing, rebooting, loading, playing and so-on. Now though, 10 minutes might be all the time I get, so having a game I can fire up, have a quick blast on, and then switch off, is key.

Rather than spend a load of money designing and developing a new hardware and software platform, you'd probably be better off looking at the various emulators that are around, and then learning to code for the platform that looks rosiest through your tinted spectacles

[dEnamed]

I don't know, old computers were a bitch to use as well. Half of the time stuff wouldn't load or rather be stuck in an infinite loop and you never knew why exactly. So you were busy restarting, keeping on restarting until it suddenly worked. And the instructions to fix a broken C64 weren't "give it a good kick" for nothing. Also "did I give it enough time off power to clear the memory? AWW hell, no. Now I'Ve gotta wait all over again".
One way or another, I don't think the joy came from the hardware but rather the sensation of something different, something new. It's only natural that we lose this sensation over time and I'm affraid there's no way to get it back.
You can emulate all the quirks, the hardware and software but you kinda can't emulate yourself because like those things, you've changed too.

/edit:
As such, there are no golden design principles to be rediscovered from old games in my opinion. Retro Gaming has tried to do so fevereshly and in some cases they succeeded in making great games - but even those can't bring back the magic of the first exposure. Case in point, pick a Call of Duty Kid and see the fascination and joy he derives from the game. That's because it's his first exposure.

[sorceress]

I don't think we're looking at things the same way.

Would I dig out my old Spectrum or Commodore 64 and sit through 10 minutes of loading screens (if I still had them)? No I wouldn't. I'd fire up an emulator and be playing games in a couple of seconds.

I'm not arguing in favour of 10 minute loading screens.

Just like todays consoles...

Consoles are not general purpose computers, and they have a lot of the same problems as the modern PC does.

Rather than spend a load of money designing and developing a new hardware and software platform, you'd probably be better off looking at the various emulators that are around, and then learning to code for the platform that looks rosiest through your tinted spectacles

That doesn't really help though. Emulation produces an environment that is a replica of an old system complete with all of it's bad points. I want to see a design that takes only the good points and builds a modern system upon that.

Emulation is also at the mercy of the host PC, which retains all of it's current problems, adding to the limitations and problems that exist within in the emulated system. That's arguably a much worse situation than using native software, especially when you consider the following:

Emulation is wasteful of resources. A host system needs to be something like 20 times faster than the system it is emulating, meaning you'd be wasting 95% of your computers power.

I don't know, old computers were a bitch to use as well. Half of the time stuff wouldn't load or rather be stuck in an infinite loop and you never knew why exactly.

I don't think it was anywhere near that often. It's just one of those things we remember hating, so it stands out in our memories as happening more than it really did.
 
But still, "things not loading" is one of the bad points of old systems. The unhappy features are things to drop, not something to deliberately carry forward into a new design.

[iffi]

Just like todays consoles...

Consoles are not general purpose computers, and they have a lot of the same problems as the modern PC does.

Problems such as?

If you're looking for something more general-purpose, sounds kinda like an iPhone/iPad, if you ask me, especially the part about everybody having the same hardware configuration.

[Gimym JIMBERT]

general purpose? Xbox? more and more

[sorceress]

Problems such as?

One example is that both modern consoles and PCs have problems with heat, and heat related faults now have a higher rate of incidence than in the past. Older systems generally did not suffer from such faults.

We do have some CPUs that run cooler, such as the Atom, but they're sometimes frowned upon for not being high performance.

Because I don't have a chuck-away mentality, I'm inclined to interpret short longevity as a problem. I'd rather optimise for high longevity than high performance.

If you're looking for something more general-purpose, sounds kinda like an iPhone/iPad, if you ask me, especially the part about everybody having the same hardware configuration.

Those have some plus points over the modern PC, but I feel that users are losing more than they gain with them. For specific/niche uses, they shine, but I think it would be hard to use an ipad as a general purpose computer.

For example, I wouldn't fancy using one to do programming, or graphics editing - tasks that typically demand a lot of mouse and keyboard use. An iphone is even less desirable for these reasons. Mouse and keyboard have become essential peripherals for completing many computing tasks. 

[BattleBeard]

 Okay, so old vs new computers. Here, let's make this easy

Old Computers!

Cons: loading takes too long, freezes every second, requires too much manual work

Pros: nostalgia

 New Computers

Cons: no nostalgia

Pros: loading takes seconds, no freezing, anti-viruses, search function, browsers, GUI, everything is awesome

[C.A. Silbereisen]

new computers are objectively better

/thread

[Μarkham]

The hardware didn't need drivers so there was no incompatibility or instability.

Am I the only one who remembers having to configure the sound card every time I started up a game that used it, and if it was a card that the game's developers didn't include a driver for I couldn't have sound?

[sorceress]

^ That describes the "IBM-compatible" PC of the mid 1990s, at a time when it was predominantly a business machine.

The PC is evolving technology. Over the years it has gradually had new things bolted onto the core architecture: BIOS, extended memory, expanded memory, INT 13H Extensions, LBA, etc. The architecture is not pretty.

PC gaming was only just beginning to become popular with the new "Multimedia PC" concept that appeared in 1995. Sound was one of those things that was bolted on, so the port address/IRQ&DMA mode had to be manually configured, because the only sound related thing DOS knew about was the internal beeper.

For the part you've quoted, I was thinking about systems like the Commodore Amiga, or C64 that had standard sound hardware from day one. There were no drivers or configurations necessary for those.

[XRA]

old computers look badass.

[Gimym JIMBERT]

Problems such as?

One example is that both modern consoles and PCs have problems with heat, and heat related faults now have a higher rate of incidence than in the past. Older systems generally did not suffer from such faults.

We do have some CPUs that run cooler, such as the Atom, but they're sometimes frowned upon for not being high performance.

Because I don't have a chuck-away mentality, I'm inclined to interpret short longevity as a problem. I'd rather optimise for high longevity than high performance.

Buy a wii or any nintendo console

[sorceress]

I know it's only a joke, but I'll answer it anyway:

1. Consoles are not general purpose computers.
2. Same problems as with ipad/iphone.

[sorceress]

So...

What features do you feel were important parts of what made 8 & 16-bit systems pleasurable, that could be woven into modern computer design?

[C.A. Silbereisen]

The problem with smartphones is that they're closed platforms (at least ios and android are). You can open them up a bit with jailbreaks but still... neither ios nor android even have a central file browser. Smartphones are definitely multi-purpose devices but not all purpose in the same way as a "proper" computer. They're decent for standard "consumer-level" stuff like checking email, browsing the internet, casual gaming etc, but for more specialized activities they're extremely limited.

[sorceress]

Open vs closed architecture is something I've thought about quite a bit. I'm really not sure which is better, as they both have advantages and disadvantages.

I think what it comes down to is fear. People dislike closed architecture for the same reason they dislike authority: it prevents freedom of choice, and people like freedom to choose because they believe they know how to maximise their own happiness, which seems logical.

I think closed architecture would be better, if it were generous.

But if the design is draconian, or dumbed down, then open architecture is preferred.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை]

new computers are better but older hardware was better built. keyboards from the 80s (such as the ibm model m) are still in use today. crt's were heavier, but had more vivid color than lcd's, and more precise rendering of different resolutions

[Bursar]

What features do you feel were important parts of what made 8 & 16-bit systems pleasurable, that could be woven into modern computer design?

I don't think there are any bits that I'd want to keep from that era. I'm perfectly happy with my multi GHz CPU, my high-res display, my surround sound audio, and the fact I can switch from playing emulated 20 year old games, to the latest AAA title, to typing up reports for work all in the space of a couple of seconds. In fact, I could probably do all three at once!

You say that todays consoles suffer from heat problems. I won't deny it, I'm on my 4th Xbox360. My Wii and PS3 have been fautless though (although plenty of other people have reported problems with them). Back in the day I suffered with no end of problems with the power supplies on Commodore 64s, and don't get me started on the wobbly nature of the various add on devices for the Spectrum!

You obviously feel that there's something missing from todays computers that has been lost over the years, and that the need for a consistant hardware platform is not being met by todays consoles. Why don't you give us a helping hand and let us know what that is?

[_Tommo_]

I think you mean REALLY old computers, like Amigas, Commodores etc... because anything after the IBM PC and the coming of Windows has been bug ridden, frustrating, and unusable.
In fact I hate so much past PCs that I still cringe when seeing someone that uses XP, 7 is SO better in terms of security and user experience.
Using Win pcs in the past meant constantly quarreling with something that broke for no reason, like that damn register that used to "get old" and you had to format everything once a year, or dlls that went missing, or games that BSODed the system, or defragmenting, or checkdisks, or having some unexpected bug every damn time you attempted to do anything.
I swear I am enjoying every single smooth motion, transparency ad auto-install that come with modern systems  

If you miss that, you can as well install Linux /flame

I miss old consoles, tough.