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[BlueSweatshirt]

To follow your comparison though, Vindictus was built to be played with others; much of the game depends on interacting with other characters. Later in the game it is absolutely crucial to have friends to defeat the bosses. Diablo 3, I'm not so sure. But it's mainly a problem for me because the series is known for being singleplayer and Blizzard totally flipped the middle finger to that audience. People come to expect single player from Diablo, and it just isn't there. Also to note, Vindictus is FTP, Diablo 3 is a $60 purchase. Buying a $60 game and not being able to play if you're without an internet connection is kind of ludicrous when you compound it with the series's legacy.

[st33d]

Torchlight was much worse than D2 or Titan Quest

No replay value sure. But I still enjoyed myself.

I don't see any replay in D3 either. The dungeons aren't random. They're static with a handful of random encounters. Still good on the first play-through though.

[BlueSweatshirt]

Wasn't infinite replayability one of their design's main pillars though?

JW: Those seven things were: approachable, powerful heroes, highly customizable, great item game, endlessly replayable, strong setting, and cooperative multiplayer.

 

[Trevor Dunbar]

It really bothers me that everyone shits all over Ubisoft for the 'always-online' DRM of Assassin's Creed 2 and SOME people online are giving Blizzard a free pass when they are (essentially) committing the same terrible practices in Diablo 3 and Starcraft 2.

Double standards much, internet?

[Capntastic]

No one's giving Blizzard a free pass, in case you've not noticed the huge amounts of backlash they've been catching.

Not stopping the game from doin' well, sales-wise, though.

[st33d]

when they are (essentially) committing the same terrible practices in Diablo 3 and Starcraft 2.

Here's how I know that you don't own Starcraft 2.

I can play Starcraft 2 offline for the campaign and practise battles.

[Trevor Dunbar]

when they are (essentially) committing the same terrible practices in Diablo 3 and Starcraft 2.

Here's how I know that you don't own Starcraft 2.

I can play Starcraft 2 offline for the campaign and practise battles.

Yet, if I want to create a "LAN" party with friends or run a tournament, we all must be online...

Or...I go fetch a dubious patch from pirates that allows us to compete offline.
(Not that I would advocate nor recommend doing such a thing...)
As always, game companies punishing/fucking over legit customers with needless 'always online' requirements/DRM.
When pirates are willing and able to circumvent any form of DRM (direct or indirect DRM) in a matter of days, even hours.
DRM or pseudo-DRM just hurts legit customers. No LAN features from Blizzard on their newest products is just dumb.

Pirates will also inevitability find a way to dube items in this game and screw the economy of upcoming marketplace.

Especially when there are bugs existing already like the templar+shield bug that renders your account completely useless until a GM tends to your account.

[st33d]

Ah, the LAN.

There you have a valid point. Yes, that's pretty shit.

[Dragonmaw]

Torchlight was much worse than D2 or Titan Quest

No replay value sure. But I still enjoyed myself.

I don't see any replay in D3 either. The dungeons aren't random. They're static with a handful of random encounters. Still good on the first play-through though.

100% wrong. Roughly half of each act is randomized. I've played through the first act three times now, and each time I've had vastly different field set-ups and random dungeons. I presume it's much the same for all the other acts, and jumping to certain quests seems to confirm it.

Basically, any time there's a reasonably big field, it's gonna be randomized.

There ARE set dungeons that always appear + set pieces, but every Diablo-like game has that.

Edit: Oh, and there are a lot of randomized "events" much like the quests in Diablo 1. Kind of a nice nod, given that Diablo 2 never really formalized random events (it had it, but they didn't give you anything killing a bunch of monsters doesn't already give you).

Double Edit: Titan Quest is great and it has COMPLETELY static levels so phphpptppbptpbptphpbpptpbht

[Capntastic]

Easily more dungeon room pieces and configuration and set pieces and events and area types than D1 and D2.  So it's hard to argue it's a step back for the series or genre.

[st33d]

100% wrong. Roughly half of each act is randomized. I've played through the first act three times now, and each time I've had vastly different field set-ups and random dungeons.

I only noticed one field in Act 1 (which was disappointing because I really like the open areas) and it generally had the same outline each time I fired up the game. The beta bit was also identical to the beta I played - only the odd feature being different.

I'll take your word for it and try to give Nightmare decent mileage.

[Tuba]

It really bothers me that everyone shits all over Ubisoft for the 'always-online' DRM of Assassin's Creed 2 and SOME people online are giving Blizzard a free pass when they are (essentially) committing the same terrible practices in Diablo 3 and Starcraft 2.

Double standards much, internet?

I played Assassin's Creed 2 and Splinter Cell Conviction which had Ubisoft's 'always-online' DRM and it was actually better than this.

I could still play them if my connection was bad, the game wouldn't get lagged if I was using my Internet for other stuff at the same time and the only time I had connection problems during a game, the game paused and waited for the connection to come back, it didn't suddenly kick me out.

[Moczan]

For me problem with Torchlight (and many other hack & slashes, including D2) is that the main focus of the game is leveling up and the process is tedious and not rewarding. Torchlight is the prime example of that, because characters are not interesting, most of their abilities are passives and it all comes down to number crunching "I leveled up, now my damage increase from 400 to 405 and max health from 250 o 253", rinse and repeat 100 times. It also had random dungeons, but all were exactly the same, with same monster, just visuals changed. And the main 'story' (which is more like a single quest) can be complete in few hours. In Diablo 2, half of the game was "ok, once I level up, I'm 1 level closer to getting my FOH" and the other "ok, once I level up, I gain +5 damage from that synergy".

Now comes Diablo 3, with the new skill system and it's the first game that makes leveling up fun and enjoyable process. Each single level gives you either new skill, skill rune (which changes the way one of your skills work), or passive and make a whole new array of builds possible. It encourages you to try new builds every level, it really makes you look forward to each single level up. I only played Demon Hunter and Baba, but I know that when I try 3 other classes it will be the same. I just hope that endgame is fun too, so I have something to do once I reach lvl 60 with all 5 classes.

Also about random dungeons/events, name of the places and progression is the same, but you get whole different events and dungeons each time you play. Just check out achievements for all events for Act I, there is no way you will complete all of them in one playthrough, because you will just not encounter some of them.

[C.A. Sinner]

Torchlight was much worse than D2 or Titan Quest

No replay value sure. But I still enjoyed myself.

I don't see any replay in D3 either. The dungeons aren't random. They're static with a handful of random encounters. Still good on the first play-through though.

100% wrong. Roughly half of each act is randomized. I've played through the first act three times now, and each time I've had vastly different field set-ups and random dungeons. I presume it's much the same for all the other acts, and jumping to certain quests seems to confirm it.

yeah the game definitely has randomized dungeons. i replayed a few quests in coop and am 99%  positive i got different dungeon layouts.

the overworld is fixed aside from random events though afaik.

(Not that I would advocate nor recommend doing such a thing...)

i would both advocate AND recommend it

anyway, im starting to really warm up to this game. the shit that was in the beta does a terrible job at showing off the strengths of its design.

also surprised by how "diabloish" the atmosphere and art direction are considering how early screens looked like WoW with a top down perspective and darker textures.

[Trevor Dunbar]

(Not that I would advocate nor recommend doing such a thing...)

i would both advocate AND recommend it