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[baconman]

Existentialism. Maybe we're all in our own worlds, just sending crosstalk to one another. But mostly, I think this is Paul being bored and wanting to exercise his debate skills. This sort of thing is what you fight with girlfriends over.

[Paul Eres]

@noah

what makes you think i was saying it was objective, let alone infallible? those are strange things to say -- to be clear, what i say is neither objective nor infallible. it's just what i believe is true right now. i change my mind often so it might be different later on, but for right now that's what i believe

as for the thought process behind the statements, the sci fi one is beyond the topic of this thread, but i can go into why eva is bad a little

it started a trend of 'psychology' based confusing plots, and largely ended the trend of 'traditional' plots. after eva, most anime seems devised to confuse the viewer, to make them have to figure out the plot (examples: flcl, paprika, serial experiments lain), rather than to just convey a fun story in an entertaining way (examples: voltron/go-lion, sailor moon, ranma 1/2)

it also, as phubans indirectly mentioned earlier, started the trend of troubled/emo protagonists rather than heroic ones. the classic anime heroes were actually *heroes*, whereas modern anime heroes are more wishy-washy. demon city shinjuku's hero was someone i looked up to and wanted to be like, and i don't really get that any more with modern anime, there's nobody to look up to and strive to emulate anymore. the closest in modern anime that i can think of is "L" in the death note -- and he's the heroic *antagonist*

so basically, i think eva, through its popularity, contributed to the end of the 'heroic' era of anime and brought about the 'psychologic' era, which doesn't appeal to me as much because i largely watched anime to be inspired, not to be depressed. that's not to say that there aren't still a few life-affirming, inspirational anime being created (miyazaki's studio ghibli, for instance, still largely creates inspiring anime), it's just not the trend anymore and is the exception rather than the rule, whereas it was pretty common in the 80s

[Paul Eres]

Existentialism. Maybe we're all in our own worlds, just sending crosstalk to one another. But mostly, I think this is Paul being bored and wanting to exercise his debate skills. This sort of thing is what you fight with girlfriends over.

no, i'm not bored at all, i haven't been bored in about 20 years actually. i also do not see this as a debate, since i'm not trying to convince anyone that eva is bad and destroyed anime, and am not seeking to present arguments for it (i did so only when specifically asked to), or to debunk arguments against it; i'm just claiming that it is bad and destroyed anime, since this is a thread about the discussion of anime. phubans brought up that he enjoyed classic anime and doesn't enjoy modern anime, so i was contributing to that conversation topic by saying that i too enjoy classic and not modern anime, and was presenting my theory about why that was so: that evangelion destroyed anime

[namragog]

Evangelion is the best show.

[Noah!]

what makes you think i was saying it was objective, let alone infallible? those are strange things to say -- to be clear, what i say is neither objective nor infallible. it's just what i believe is true right now. i change my mind often so it might be different later on, but for right now that's what i believe

Okay, that makes sense. These days it's strange to see someone who isn't tripping all over themselves with "I just think"s and "in my own personal opinion"s. So for someone to just come out and say "Eva was genre-destroyingly bad" with no restrictions or delimiters, it's...well, it's boldness unfelt by the modern man.

Once again, sorry if I appeared confrontational. I had kinda assumed that your posts were written from the standpoint of "this is just what I believe," but I just wanted to clarify it to be sure.

So now that that's resolved: anybody out there watch Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei?

[BlueSweatshirt]

Modern anime tends to be less focused on "superhero" style shows with role-models and more focused on identifying with the viewer's emotions and struggles for personal inspiration. Keep in mind your differences in cultural perspective as well as dramatization and characterization before you say "PFFF IM NOT A SHY/TROUBLED/EMO WHINY BITCH".

Also:

what i say is neither objective nor infallible. it's just what i believe is true right now.

If read in a certain light that quote is amazingly contradicting.

[Paul Eres]

@noah - hmm, i probably should have said the reasons when i first said it was bad but i assumed it was common knowledge -- there's a large segment of 80s anime fans who feel that eva marked the end of good anime, it's not just me

also to be clear, i don't think eva was badly made, or not entertaining. it was pretty entertaining, i enjoyed watching it, it was an interesting experiment. but after its enormous success anime strived to out-eva eva, by making their stories even more incomprehensible, and making their characters even more pathetic, and its influence can be felt pretty much in every anime created after it. it's as if the executive producers are like 'this anime won't sell unless it's like eva, so add in some confusing psychological stuff!' -- and none of them do it as well as eva did

@jakman - i'm not sure i see the contradiction in that quote, could you elaborate? also there are certainly cultural differences, but i think the generational difference is more important. even many native japanese anime fans in japan prefer 80s anime, so it's not just being from a different culture that does it

[BlueSweatshirt]

I don't know how true the statement that "many native japanese anime fans in japan prefer 80s anime" is, however it's certainly possible I suppose. Each generation comes with different preferences, values, and troubles, and it's totally possible that they just might not identify with the concerns of the protagonist, as I believe is your case.

Also the contradiction was in the fact you said you believed what you said to be true right after stating that what you say is "neither objective nor infallible". The "certain light" is when you read the "i believe" part in the sense that anything you know is what you believe, subjective or objective, from which you could reason you meant all of what you say you believe is true, or objective. Anyway, let's not get carried off talking about that. ANIMUS ARE MOAR IMPORTENT.

[phubans]

I actually really liked Evangelion, but then I watched it and a few other favorites of mine when I was around the age of 17 - 18, so I felt like I could really relate to a lot of the teenage characters in anime back then (that and I was far less jaded). EDIT: But I agree with Paul Eres' analysis about how it might have set a new standard for anime that all tried to mimic but only to fail. I think all anime should be experimental in general, and I think that's why I originally liked it so much.

I didn't think I'd ever live to see another decent anime series, but I somehow missed Berserk and ended up seeing it for the first time that was incidentally the very first (and only) time I ever tried magic mushrooms. Needless to say it was a pretty flooring first impression.

I remember really enjoying Escaflowne when I first saw it, too, but that's one that I'm not sure I could appreciate as much now. Not sure why I have that impression; it just feels like it's not manly/surly enough for the tsundere adult I have become.

Fist of the North Star is a good one... I came for the "let's laugh at this show because it's ridiculous" and stayed for the "holy shit this is actually a really compelling story with amazing characters." I never finished the whole series, though.

Ping Pong Club is one I have been revisiting with my GF recently. I must have watched that show at least 3 - 5 times in the past, making sure I shared it with all my friends. It's really funny and off-the-wall; still holds up well to today's standards, too. In fact, it might have been way ahead of its time because some of the scenes are still shocking and WTF-inducing.

You can watch the entire thing on YouTube, starting here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnwXTAL3fp0 Episodes are short, so you can watch them when you're eating or taking a quick 10 minute break.

And yeah, I agree that Grave of the Fireflies is hard to watch. Until my mid-20s, it was the only film I had ever seen that was able to bring me to tears, both times I watched it. I was pretty surprised by this because I had never been that moved by any movie before, and this was a piece of animation! I read somewhere something about the movie being able to bypass our filters because if it were a live-action movie it wouldn't have the same effect because we'd have some sort of defense for handling the scenario, but that it's an animated child instead we're touched directly by the concept rather than the person... Or something? I wish I could find the article now.

Ask me anything about classic anime; I am a guru

[Paul Eres]

I don't know how true the statement that "many native japanese anime fans in japan prefer 80s anime" is, however it's certainly possible I suppose. Each generation comes with different preferences, values, and troubles, and it's totally possible that they just might not identify with the concerns of the protagonist, as I believe is your case.

Also the contradiction was in the fact you said you believed what you said to be true right after stating that what you say is "neither objective nor infallible". The "certain light" is when you read the "i believe" part in the sense that anything you know is what you believe, subjective or objective, from which you could reason you meant all of what you say you believe is true, or objective. Anyway, let's not get carried off talking about that. ANIMUS ARE MOAR IMPORTENT.

i don't think i said that i don't *identify* with the protagonists. i feel that everyone has many parts -- their weak parts, their strong parts. modern anime tends to focus on the weak parts of people rather than the strong parts. that doesn't mean that i myself don't have weak parts, it just means that i feel that there's a point at which focusing on the weaknesses of mankind and not on the strengths of mankind can be overdone. in a way i feel that people who are weak *especially* need to focus on the strong parts, and that "emo" type personalities could only benefit from watching some heroic stuff too. there's also the idea that people tend to become what they focus on, and all that. it's a pretty complex issue, and i don't think it's as simple as you're presenting it

i also feel you're ignoring marketing forces: i feel that the reason anime is like this is *not* because people prefer it, or because people are somehow wimpier or more emotional, but simply because corporate executives in japan decided that that is what sells better

as for the quote, i think there's a difference between knowledge of thought and knowledge of fact. one can know, factually, that one thinks or believes something while still recognizing that it could be incorrect. this happens all the time. for instance, i believe that my father is in the next room: that is what i believe to be true. but i am not claiming that my knowledge of that is *infallible*. it's possible he left without me noticing, for instance. you can believe something is true without believing you are infallible about it

[Paul Eres]

here's a simplified way that i can put what i mean:

let's say that you're a kid who is unhappy with your life, feel misunderstood, have no girlfriend, feel your parents don't understand you, and have no friends, and everyone makes fun of you

which would it be *better* to watch: an anime of someone exactly like you (so that you can feel you aren't alone, and feel that there are other people out there with your problems), or a different anime of someone who is living the life you want to live, who is happy, self-confident, stands up to bullies, has great friends, and is everything you wish you could be. which would you learn more from? which would inspire you to improve more? my guess is the second type

which is not to say the first type of anime doesn't have its place, just that you shouldn't discount the power of seeing a role model in improving someone's life

[ham and brie]

Anyone watching Another or Ano Natsu?

Another is one of the shows I'm following.

but after its enormous success anime strived to out-eva eva, by making their stories even more incomprehensible, and making their characters even more pathetic, and its influence can be felt pretty much in every anime created after it. it's as if the executive producers are like 'this anime won't sell unless it's like eva, so add in some confusing psychological stuff!' -- and none of them do it as well as eva did

I think you don't know much about modern anime. Usually when people complain about modern anime it's because of all the moe shows...

[rdein]

So now that that's resolved: anybody out there watch Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei?

SZS is insane and full of references to pretty much everything, but it's cool
too bad there are way too many seasons now (zoku goku poku daigoku daimaou daigokumaou) so its initial effect is a bit washed away

[Paul Eres]

@ham and brie - that's possible to likely; i don't even know what "moe" even means for instance. i know a lot about classic anime but little about modern anime because whenever i've tried to watch modern anime i've been turned off by how unenjoyable it is to watch. it's possible that anime has entered a new trend after the psychologic/confusing trend

i also don't normally watch anime *tv series*, just anime *movies*, so what i said probably applies more to modern anime movies (like paprika and lain) than to modern anime tv shows

of modern anime, i've only really enjoyed the modern studio ghibli movies and death note, everything else i've tried i couldn't stand enough to get through

@general - to be clearer on what i meant earlier, i didn't mean that heroic anime never dealt with people's problems, because it does. in sailor moon for instance, each of the girls had some type of problem. but it always showed them *overcoming* their problems, rather than succumbing to them, and that's i think the key difference. sailor mercury would overcome her shyness, etc.

[BlueSweatshirt]

phubans:
Despite all this there is still a wide variety of anime out there. There's definitely more shoujo(aimed at girls) stuff around now, but(speaking of market forces) that's because there's a growing market for girls now too. I think it's too assumptive to say "japanese execs decided that <x> sells better" on a whim.

also paul eres:(relates to your comments too, phubs)
That goes back to what I was saying earlier. Role-model vs. personal inspiration. In the modern animes you refer to it's not just about watching someone's weaknesses, but also how they overcome them--It's not just watching someone weep in their misery. The effectiveness of either experience merely depends on how one deals with their problems. I would personally call the personal inspiration one more effective because, rather than seeing someone who is already successful, you can see what someone goes through and what they experience on their road to self-improvement. Seeing how someone else deals with something would be much more helpful to me than just seeing someone who never had the problem in the first place.

I'm going to stop participating in this argument now, we're getting beyond what I'm knowledgeable enough to talk about.(deep psychology and how japanese people think of themselves and deal with their problems, micro economics) Hopefully my perspective will have been insightful.